Auto tune

[Human Avatar]

David Bowie is consistently a bit flat, and sounds good doing it .

 

[stevens]

what was meticulously created in a sophisticated sound studio versus a more impromptu

It's been an interesting path...all the way from using conventional tape splicing techniques in 1973 to make Richard Nixon say anything we wanted (which was very entertaining)...to asking AI today to make modern celebrities say absurd things (which I leave to others). More proof that advancing technology always will be....misused.

 

[Human Avatar]

@Judge

You are right there never has and never will be brakes on technology, music included. I suspect the next 10 years what’s left of the recording industry will be all AI artists and for anybody to experience music before the advances in technology one would have to go out and see a band for a human musical experience if they so desire . Almost like going to a museum, one could show their children all the old tools people used to use to create things.

Individuality is on the decline in the arts or what is left of it. I can see advertisements in the future for the newest song! All natural made by a human , all organic. And will be 10 times more expensive to hear something with less ingredients

 

[Judge]

It's been an interesting path...all the way from using conventional tape splicing techniques in 1973 to make Richard Nixon say anything we wanted (which was very entertaining)...to asking AI today to make modern celebrities say absurd things (which I leave to others). More proof that advancing technology always will be....misused.

LOL...point taken.

While such technology can be useful in enhancing music and sound, it can (and is) used in the most nefarious of ways. More practical in terms of propaganda in that it can be done in seconds with the right message as opposed to broadcasting the same message 24/7 to every household.

And yet the same dynamics go so far back in time....regardless of technology.

Befuddled bystander: "So Captain, you really did abandon the use of money in the future?"
James Tiberius Kirk: "We had to. The counterfeiters had better resources than the mint."

 

[Boogs]

More proof that advancing technology always will be....misused.

Or, is it that there are simply people who will always misuse whatever they can get their hands on, so will naturally adopt any new technology they can put to their use? Simply human nature, or at least one aspect.

 

[gj13]

I think it depends, I'm not a fan of artists using it all the time but sometimes a singer or instrument player gets everything spot on, the intensity, the emotion etc, but then a few notes are off. To preserve the artistic elements, it's better to use autotune or melodyne to target and correct those minor issues, kind of like spell check. It's also acceptable if they use it artistically like TPain ... When done tastefully.
However, if an artist is using it to cover up a lack of ability then it's a bit like using performance enhancing drugs lol.

I wonder when synthesizer and drum machines came out, if people were having the same debate on whether it's cheating . Now we are embarking into the AI generation so who knows what will be considered cheating or not. Technology and music will always go together, an instrument could be thought of as a technology I suppose.

However on the topic of compression, I'm not a fan of the super compressed and crushed tracks. Loudness wars will hopefully come to an end. Yes some genres are known for it but what can you do

 

[Au Naturel]

I think auto-tune is cheating if you don't know in advance that something is being auto-tuned. When I watched Les Miserables in the theater, I'd read that everything was auto-tuned because none of the leads is a professional singer.

Unfortunately, most recordings, including those of professionals, are autotuned these days. (If everyone "cheats," is it really cheating?) I suppose the real test is how they sound in a live performance. However, the movie industry has had actors lip-synching to someone else's singing since the introduction of talkies, so there is that.

Saw an interesting video asserting that Judy Garland would never make it as a singer today. They showed how auto-tuning "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" actually ruins it. Very subtle things like a tiny bit of raspiness, not starting and stopping perfectly with the time, and slight off-tone shifts that did not match the sheet music but simply sounded better.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I am so far out of touch…Morrissey to me means Bill Morrissey.

…live music has always been better than recorded music, but maybe there is no place left for live music except huge venues which to me could not possibly have good acoustics.

…what makes music music is all the variations the performer puts into the performance. And it can be different each time.

…in some cases, it is impossible for the instrument to hit a note precisely in tune. I learned that I cannot (and vocalists in general cannot) go from a low note to a very high note without “sliding” into it from notes below. And someone then posted that was true for saxophonists (and I image other woodwinds.)

 

[Mr. Stevens]

Indeed I am. Spector is largely credited with turning audio engineering into an art form of its own. It's funny how we have all the dynamic range we want with 24-bit recordings, whereas magnetic tape was at best 30 dB. But today, the dynamic range is gone. At least with today's technology there's some hope for intoxicated Karaoke singers.

Spector was an impressive artist, but doing recordings like that is similar to doing a cover of someone's original track, as it's produced.

Thanks for clarifying I listened to a lot of Spector in high school and college. His influence is powerful, but I think he essentially took one idea and developed it. I find Brian Wilson took Spector's sound and did much more with it, being a much better composer and an arranger. I do think there is a lot of great production after that period (ECM records, Bill Price, certain hip hop producers like the Bomb Squad, and others), but agree about dynamic range today. I'm surprised to see record collectors ecstatic when masters tapes are used for a remaster, since the sound is often so processed. It's like using film negatives, but cropping the image.

Dave Fridmann is one of the worst offenders. I love the records (Pinkerton, Flaming Lips, MGMT, Spoon), but yikes, the compression. The Woods by Sleater-Kinney has some great songs, but it's so hard to listen to. At least people have dialed back on that, compared to the late 90s/early 00s.

 

[thejuice]

I think auto-tune is cheating if you don't know in advance that something is being auto-tuned. When I watched Les Miserables in the theater, I'd read that everything was auto-tuned because none of the leads is a professional singer.

I have been revisiting Deftones and I had an epiphany that Chino Moreno uses autotune. I was quite shocked as I always thought they were this 'authentic' band. The older they got the more 'melodic' (commercial?) they became, auto tune lets them have ideas above their station.

They started out as a shouty rap metal band, which pretty much toasted the singers voice after the first album tour. You can hear a degradation after each album, a low on 'Saturday Night Wrist' and a bit of a recovery afterwards with some vocal coaching.

I still like them, but it does feel a little like I was deceived. Like most of the bands I grew up with. I was consuming an image, a product. Fun fact, the guitarist is a flatearther now

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I have been revisiting Deftones and I had an epiphany that Chino Moreno uses autotune. I was quite shocked as I always thought they were this 'authentic' band. The older they got the more 'melodic' (commercial?) they became, auto tune lets them have ideas above their station. They started out as a shouty rap metal band, which pretty much toasted the singers voice after the first album tour. You can hear a degradation after each album, a low on 'Saturday Night Wrist' and a bit of a recovery afterwards.

I still like them, but it does feel a little like I was deceived. Like most of the bands I grew up with.

Yet, some can still make you smile

 

[thejuice]

@Judge

You are right there never has and never will be brakes on technology, music included. I suspect the next 10 years what’s left of the recording industry will be all AI artists and for anybody to experience music before the advances in technology one would have to go out and see a band for a human musical experience if they so desire . Almost like going to a museum, one could show their children all the old tools people used to use to create things.

Individuality is on the decline in the arts or what is left of it. I can see advertisements in the future for the newest song! All natural made by a human , all organic. And will be 10 times more expensive to hear something with less ingredients

I heard an ai song for the first time walking around an overwhelmingly bright and loud supermarket, before processing my expensive shopping via a bossy self checkout machine. The world is becoming more alienating and dehumanising. We shall pay homage to our ai overlords!

 

[thejuice]

However on the topic of compression, I'm not a fan of the super compressed and crushed tracks. Loudness wars will hopefully come to an end. Yes some genres are known for it but what can you do

I hope in the future, pre masters of records of this era will be leaked so we can hear the music in a purer form. Like the guitar hero version of Death Magnetic

 

[thejuice]

I think it depends, I'm not a fan of artists using it all the time but sometimes a singer or instrument player gets everything spot on, the intensity, the emotion etc, but then a few notes are off. To preserve the artistic elements, it's better to use autotune or melodyne to target and correct those minor issues, kind of like spell check. It's also acceptable if they use it artistically like TPain ... When done tastefully.
However, if an artist is using it to cover up a lack of ability then it's a bit like using performance enhancing drugs lol.

I wonder when synthesizer and drum machines came out, if people were having the same debate on whether it's cheating . Now we are embarking into the AI generation so who knows what will be considered cheating or not. Technology and music will always go together, an instrument could be thought of as a technology I suppose.

However on the topic of compression, I'm not a fan of the super compressed and crushed tracks. Loudness wars will hopefully come to an end. Yes some genres are known for it but what can you do

Spell check is a good analogy. Have we been reared to expect perfection though. Hearing a mistake on an old record is almost exciting to me. Aha, a human made this!

There is a debate that is always raging in the drum world, whether triggers on bass drums is cheating (readers: when a sample is played every time you hit the drum).

I see it as an artistic and a practical choice for extreme genres of metal, but it does make life a lot easier as a feather touch has the same volume as a hit with full force. So speed is more easily achieved.

There is a bit of a macho, competitive element to how fast you can play. "I can play double bass at xxx bpms" The thrash guys who learned the old way have a natural gatekeeping attitude. They see the new generation blow past them on rocket skates!

 

[Mr. Stevens]

Spell check is a good analogy. Have we been reared to expect perfection though. Hearing a mistake on an old record is almost exciting to me. Aha, a human made this!

Some mistakes can definitely make them more fun. "Louie, Louie" and "Come as You Are" come to mind. Or "Little Pad" by The Beach Boys, which seems like it wasn't even complete.

 

[thejuice]

Some mistakes can definitely make them more fun. "Louie, Louie" and "Come as You Are" come to mind. Or "Little Pad" by The Beach Boys, which seems like it wasn't even complete.

Listening to Louie Louie, the drummer is wild, almost a child like playfulness, love it. And, gasp, not always in time. He definitely influenced Keith Moon, especially the enigma of fills that groove/ grooves that are fills. Wouldn't get away with all this profligacy these days!

 

[thejuice]

Come as you are by Nirvana? I'd be surprised as it's a polished album.
Kurt Cobain hit the biggest bum note (2.38) on a solo in a David Bowie cover on the Unplugged in New York album and i don't know why but it was endearing. It's my favourite release by them because all the gloss and hype was stripped away.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I blame auto tune for how awful today’s music is.

 

[NDR2]

Listening to Louie Louie, the drummer is wild, almost a child like playfulness, love it. And, gasp, not always in time. He definitely influenced Keith Moon, especially the enigma of fills that groove/ grooves that are fills. Wouldn't get away with all this profligacy these days!

There’s a story I’ve seen from several sources that the drummer actually dropped his drumstick during the recording and yelled the F word, which you can faintly hear.

 

[thejuice]

I hear something at around 55s that sounds very much like an F bomb