Can someone help me decode this message?

[Aspychata]

This was a fantastic thread, and reminded me why l need to stay out of the grips of narcissists who hover around those who fall into their traps of soft spoken letters enticing you back to their love, which is the bait. Because normal and love never exist with a narcissist. They are often great word manipulators.

 

[MildredHubble]

I think a lot of people have posted some good advice and responses.

I don't know if I have much to add. But as a victim of Narcissistic abuse, I have found, to my horror, I'm still very vulnerable to it. It's like a dance, once you take the first step, it plays through until you escape again. Just being in the environment that previous abuse took place in can make me vulnerable to manipulation.

My mother is extremely good at getting people off guard. I've had, what I thought were completely harmless conversations with her, but discovered I'd gifted her some morsel of information that she used in ways I'd never imagined.

I haven't had any contact with my mother for maybe 17 years now. It's just safer that way.

I've heard it said that victims of narc abuse and perpetrators are like "locks and keys". We are vulnerable as we have been tricked and conditioned into believing their behaviour is supportive/affectionate/normal.

I've even in recent years, encountered a psychiatrist who displayed all of the typical Narc behaviours, at times, eerily similar to my mother's tactics, but I kept telling myself I was being paranoid, even though my instincts were screaming at me. That's my biggest vulnerability, I dismiss my instincts because every time I caught my mother out, she'd gaslight me into thinking I was being awful to her when she "loved me and just wanted what was best for me". I'd think I was the bad person for (rightfully) doubting her.

So I guess you will need to decide, are you prepared to take that risk?

If I were in your shoes, with my mother, I'd probably decide that while it is possible she's changed, the damage has been done. It's just not worth the risk.

There was this little story I was told once about a fox and a scorpion. The scorpion wanted to cross a river, so he asked a fox to swim across with him on his back. The fox said "No, you will sting me and then I'll drown." The scorpion said "Of course I won't, if I sting you, we will both drown!" So the fox agreed. Half way across the river, the scorpion stung the fox. The fox cried "What have you done!? Now we will both drown!" The scorpion replied "Of course I stung you, I'm a scorpion!"

That pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

There was this little story I was told once about a fox and a scorpion. The scorpion wanted to cross a river, so he asked a fox to swim across with him on his back. The fox said "No, you will sting me and then I'll drown." The scorpion said "Of course I won't, if I sting you, we will both drown!" So the fox agreed. Half way across the river, the scorpion stung the fox. The fox cried "What have you done!? Now we will both drown!" The scorpion replied "Of course I stung you, I'm a scorpion!"

All of what you said is excellent. But your last paragraph reminds me very much of the final words between John and Dutch in Red Dead I: "I've been fighting me whole life, John. But I can't fight my own nature. It's a paradox." The scorpion simply does what it does because of its nature, and so too does Dutch.

Neither care about how their actions affect people (though perhaps Dutch does feel remorse at the events of Red Dead II) but they only care that they can act on their nature. The scorpion, I think, is doubly cruel because it knows its nature but tells the fox: why would it do something that would hurt both of them? In the end, its nature overpowers caring for its own demise or that of the fox.

...well, looks like I gotta log off and go to work--otherwise I'll spend all day over-analyzing a simple parable of human nature exemplified by animals :/

 

[autism-and-autotune]

This was a fantastic thread, and reminded me why l need to stay out of the grips of narcissists who hover around those who fall into their traps of soft spoken letters enticing you back to their love, which is the bait. Because normal and love never exist with a narcissist. They are often great word manipulators.

I agree. This thread has been validating as much as it has been eye-opening. I really wish we could just...band together and educated newly-discovered autists on why we fall so easily into narcissistic webs.

 

[VAW]

I see what you're saying...Hmm.

How can one be civil while still maintaining boundaries and standing up for one's self?

well in my case we had 5 kids together, I still had to be civil with him but I didn't have to do everything he said now, I moved to another state 12 hours away because I knew he would want me to come back and wouldn't leave me alone and if he started his yelling on the phone, I would say stop yelling or I will hang up. I still had to drop the kids off at times and pick them up so I was civil. I learned you can't argue with that kind of person because nothing you are going to say is right, and they just get more mad and agitated. So the only way I could deal with it was to either let him get his tantrum out of the way or tell him if it was over the phone I would just hang up. When he called and talked nice I would talk to him. They are hard to deal with, I will admit that! When they want something they are nice, like once he needed $200 to fix his car, so I sent it to him and he never paid me back, Then one day he called like 6 months later and he claimed I never sent him any money, I said oh yes i did and mailed him a copy of the cancelled check with his signature on the back, he got so mad at me that he called and started yelling, i guess i proved i was right and he didn't like that. I guess you can talk to them but if they get out of control, i would just say, i am not arguing with you, if you want to be civil then you can call me. that way you are not the bad guy, you have thrown it in their lap to be nice or you aren't having it.

 

[Mary Terry]

@1ForAll. Your post really resonated with me. That's the same description of my mother, she has that extremely cold side that she shows me but not others. So its a form of gaslighting. I now recognize that l have insecure attachment style with my male partners in my lifetime. I struggle to feel valued and loved, yet l have continually searched out the same cold type of personality in men, so at least l recognize this pattern. The bottom line for me is, is this a guilt letter? Is this letter making you feel guilty? That's the best tool in their tool box. You need to contact me, because after all, we ARE your family. Guilt trips bother me. If it was me, l would just let them know, l am still thinking about what l want to do. Like leave them in limbo, and if they start pushing you again, then it was all a ruse.

Wise words, Aspychata. Those of us who have been victimized by narcissists have a hard time ever feeling adequate or loved. Afterall, we've been told all our lives that we are inadequate and unlovable. It's hard to recognize the manipulation and to rise above it.

 

[Hypnalis]

@autism-and-autotune

I'm assuming you've confirmed your "minimum contact" policy, and made it (at least provisionally) permanent.

Given that, I think you you still need a plan.

This is because it's hard to unilaterally avoid your parents. You can move and/or disconnect from your entire extended family of course, but if you don't, you're still somewhat exposed. Someone in that group will be sentimental or weak. Narcs are neither. They're crazy, but that makes them strong in some ways.

How you do this will depend on all kinds of factors. I suggest you start ASAP by excluding some objectives.

For example it would be "nice" if you tried to improve your mother's behavior via education.
But it would be foolish. You can't fix real narcs, so there is no path towards that objective that doesn't have your mother taking up way too much of your time, and way too much space in your brain.

It might be understandable if you decided to nuke them. But why? Even in the movies, the journey of a hero who's motivated by revenge, and doesn't let it go as part of their transformation arc, always ends in tragedy.

So my suggestion is to think through all the "playground dispute" ideas, and actively decide not to pursue them. That bit can be quite fast and easy.

Then you need to start on a more nuanced objective than "avoid them forever". That's a good start, but it may not be entirely achievable.
:
:
My personal suggestion is to start by letting go completely. No anger, no resentment, no plans for helpful or harmful engagement in the future.
It may take a little while to actually let it all go and become objective.
But it sounds like your fiance is understanding, supportive and helpful (if so, give him a thumbs up from an internet stranger (me ) Active support and borrowed strength buys you time, and help to hold to your decisions
during the coming counter-attacks.

So you can set an achievable long-term objective (important) now, even if you're not ready to start on the large-scale work, and perhaps do some tactical preparation.

And a reminder at this point: this sounds dramatic because it is: someone close to you is actively interfering with your life; it doesn't matter whether they're ill, malicious or both - it's the negative affect that matters; and inaction on your part is very likely to leads to a poor outcome.
You're at stage 5 of this (use Volger's list, or one of the simpler ones from the web):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey:
:
For "tactical preparation", consider what your mother might do, with the unannounced visit you've already experienced as an example.

e.g.
* Gather information to use against you from weaker members of your family
* More unannounced visits
* If there's a family Facebook group, she'll engage there, and her stories will be manipulative, not accurate
* Misuse of the discussions at family gatherings (if there are any)
* Financial
*** Don't take anything, don't expect anything - it will be used against you
*** If your parents can interfere with your finances, they might. Change accounts, cards, even bank proactively
* etc, etc.

You don't need a complete list (or check Reddit if you want scenarios).

But you need realistic plans that you are capable of executing. Because each new attack will be aimed at your weak points.
You need answers to questions like "what will I actually do if they turn up late at night in the middle of winter?". (Possible answer - they wait in their car, send them to a restaurant to wait (bathroom access) and get them one night at a hotel (their card, you pay them back immediately with cash or some means that doesn't expose your credit card number)).

A PITA to think through such things, but moving overseas with your SO as a defensive measure would be a lot more trouble than making simple preparations now.

 

[Mary Terry]

well in my case we had 5 kids together, I still had to be civil with him but I didn't have to do everything he said now, I moved to another state 12 hours away because I knew he would want me to come back and wouldn't leave me alone and if he started his yelling on the phone, I would say stop yelling or I will hang up. I still had to drop the kids off at times and pick them up so I was civil. I learned you can't argue with that kind of person because nothing you are going to say is right, and they just get more mad and agitated. So the only way I could deal with it was to either let him get his tantrum out of the way or tell him if it was over the phone I would just hang up. When he called and talked nice I would talk to him. They are hard to deal with, I will admit that! When they want something they are nice, like once he needed $200 to fix his car, so I sent it to him and he never paid me back, Then one day he called like 6 months later and he claimed I never sent him any money, I said oh yes i did and mailed him a copy of the cancelled check with his signature on the back, he got so mad at me that he called and started yelling, i guess i proved i was right and he didn't like that. I guess you can talk to them but if they get out of control, i would just say, i am not arguing with you, if you want to be civil then you can call me. that way you are not the bad guy, you have thrown it in their lap to be nice or you aren't having it.

Narcissists' biggest fear is strong, truth telling people. They go berserk when directly presented with truth and direct evidence that they lied. They live in perpetual fear that they will be unmasked and that everyone will know what they are. Their emotional age is about 8 years old. They are like proverbial 8-year-old bullies on the playground.

It sounds like you've found a way to handle your ex in a manner that helps you maintain your sanity.

 

[Mary Terry]

I'm sorry to hear of what you endured at the presence of your father. While I cannot fathom the thought of being aware of my parents facing their demise alone, in the hospital or someplace with no one close...I resonate with your final sentence very much. They just don't have me anymore.

Everything in this paragraph hits it all home for me. No one ever truly knows a narc, but I've become pretty good at recognizing it now.

Thanks for your wisdom. My best bet is to just say nothing. What anger can be expected from someone who does nothing?

Narcs will hate you for your silence. They have an insatiable need for constant attention and admiration.

I think I can spot a narc within 5 minutes of meeting them. Sometimes I can recognize them without ever having been introduced to them. They are the ones who MUST be the center of attention at all times.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

Perhaps they are in therapy--and yes, I find the wording to be way too odd and professional. But that's all that emails and conversations have ever been with my parents.

True, I cannot fix the wrongs done to me--but nor can I just dismiss them. They hurt me and shaped me. No, I cannot relive these events, but I can reflect on them and more importantly understand why they happened--it's all to do with mental health.

I do not like talking with them. If I forgive them, they'll never know. Any parent who makes a conscious choice to hurt their child and do nothing with their spouse also hurts their child is, frankly, wrong. And what would be the point of continuing an empty relationship with them when I have all that I need from my fiance?

Forgiving is an act that benefits you, not your parents. Your parents do not need to know or understand. It has nothing to do with how wrong they were. It is not our responsibility to make parents understand their actions, apologize, or try to make things better.

You are correct, there is no point in continuing a toxic relationship.

I had horrible parents as well. No point in going into it. Just wanted to let you know I’ve been there.

Well, I'm glad that you were able to become amiable with your grandmother. I like happy resolutions like these. But my concern with my parents is that once they have a foothold, they will continue to manipulate and exploit me for their own gain. My mother has always wanted 'the picture-perfect family' and because she didn't get the children she desired, all her love goes into her dogs, who are pretty and obedient. I do not like talking with them, nor how I feel in their presence. I'd rather spare myself turmoil than serve their needs.

In this paragraph you are making it clear you don’t want a relationship with your parents. Excellent work.

So ditch the email. Print it out and burn it. Whatever makes you feel best. Then put it behind you. I’m sure you have more enjoyable things to do.

Thank you though for your encouragement. :=)

I think you are doing well at processing your issues. It doesn’t happen overnight.

 

[trustinnerwisdom]

My perspective is that the heart felt communication went missing.
It is like you are in a safe bubble and your mum isn’t liking it. Will you take the bait or not ? She still seems to have hope.

(with your consent asking for perspectives, I got an intuitive feeling of something,I am educated in to cleanse).

 

[Aspychata]

I agree with @trustinnerwisdom Like your mom is fishing, to see if you are weak.

 

[1ForAll]

I was debating the past day or so whether or not to write this or not as it includes many personal details, and as why should I waste my time thinking about her parents anymore, but in order to benefit members here, and to show how messed up certain persons can be with intent to affect us severely for their benefit, I felt a need to be transparent as summing up like I did before does injustice to the real distress and pain–and unfairness– my wife and I really have been going together through for over nineteen years because of my wife's mother especially, which included two years as a live-in relationship at her mother's place prior to the seventeen years of marriage. It is long what I write, but it feels good telling the forum what we think of her..

So, it all started with I driving over the border each month for two to three week visits at a time (I did this for about two years) with my friend then (wife now) to support her, as she was very private about things online when we would message each other daily for hours for a year prior. She seemed friendly and energetic, but I knew she was having severe difficulties there because she was in the hospital at one point for long-stay there, did part time college courses online prior, did not drive, was homeless at one point in a shelter, had charges against her, and despite this and a year of messaging online, she did not say anything about her parents. I assumed she was either scared to talk to me about them, was very private in disclosing such things to me yet, or other.

Anyways, we met in Toronto, got along well, did scenic public things together that day, then unexpectedly she says we are meeting her mother. They lived in a high-rise condo there, yet when I met her mother something seemed off right away. I am not referring to her talking fast, as her daughter did such too, and as city life can do that too, but I meant her mother came across at first as really outwardly judgmental about me, serious, rigid and cold, not friendly, not smiling and not spontaneous either like her daughter who had more outgoing and free spirit personality. Now, I do not smile either, and it is hard for me to seem happy, but I come across as polite, relevant and modest when I talk, but usually brief and shy early on, and not very open. I was still nice and respectful to her mother, as much as I could be.

Anyway, it was a little shock to me too when her mother was very blunt and wanted to know quickly my education level, my job, what my family members did and so forth on day one, as if she wanted to know if I was marriage material, good enough for her daughter long term. I had prior told her daughter through messaging all the truths about me and my family then, and her daughter still was Ok with me visiting as she knew I was honest, put forth the efforts, with long messaging sessions and emails, and she said I seemed kind and sincere.

Despite all the mentioned initial concerns I had with her mother, her mother did eventually seem happier with me there. She said she knew she could not handle things alone, and she needed me to support and calm her daughter, try to get her out and about each day, and help her with her court case that involved her mother pressing charges on her for something. So, there was a period after the first meeting where her mother seemed somewhat Ok to me, and she even complimented me on bringing weeks of groceries over each time, doing the chores daily there without being asked, bringing a calm presence to their place, keeping her daughter busy and so forth. But, in the back of my mind I admit I wondered if her mother was using me.

Things started to worsen later. Her mother started showing herself more over time. She critiqued her daughter often daily for her appearance (not wearing dresses, makeup), for being 'lazy' for not going to traditional university, for not being successful like her. She put pressure on her daughter to have the same beliefs and achievements as those in her culture, and she refused to show a caring side to her daughter about her suffering and emotional health, never admitting fault for anything, not wanting to have talks with her or do things with her as she always said she was "so busy." Um, no. Watching tv for hours each late afternoon and evening is not being busy. She needed to prioritize better, or I just think in general she did not have that nurturing side.

Then, without I telling her mother anything about my goals and plans, and apparently without her mother ever asking prior what her daughter's goals and plans were which were to just find a nice guy and to do things slowly at her pace and in her own ways, her mother then starts putting pressure on me to go to business seminars, as her dreams were for I to get some business in Toronto, despite no interest whatsoever there. If I did not want that, I "should" work as an actuary then she said, if I would just go back to get my Masters, because I was good with Math, with that having been my major. (To Be Continued on Next Post)

 

[1ForAll]

I started seeing other concerning signs with her mother too, like when I finally found out her mother pressured her daughter (while hospitalized then for severe anxiety and PTSD issues from more severe conflicts with her mother over the years) to agree to/sign contracts taking three life insurance policies out on her. Her mother also attempted to take one out on her own father when he had a terminal condition, and luckily at least that did not go through. Also, during her mother's divorce with her neglectful and enabling dad, but who was not as serious and critical as his wife, when their daughter was age five or so, the mother got awarded like a few millions dollars there, yet refused to put it in trust funds or other accounts for her daughter. Instead she bought investment properties with it, for her own benefit, but going grocery shopping and merchandise shopping at the very cheapest of stores, and living and acting like she was poor inside the condo, but apparently telling her friends and others, from what we later learned, how successful she was and how pathetic we were.

Well, my wife and I value character, and doing our best and living the simple life. We live meagerly, but have no desires to buy or show off expensive real estate, buy expensive vehicles, get great education and great jobs, nor could we anyway. Regarding the latter two items, they were low level legal clerk jobs her mother had even, and she had no college or university education. And she sees her as far above us. She does not even honor terms of signed contracts from monies promised her daughter, that she drafted under the table demanding no lawyers involved, but wanting it to look formal and official. She treats us like some legal client, but respects us and our rights less. The purpose of such contracts and also verbal promises is to keep her daughter in her life, knowing she provides nothing else but coldness, toxicity and abuse, but when it comes to fulfilling the terms, she stonewalls for many years and never willingly honors the terms to disburse as she likely suspected that mother/daughter relationship would be over when she does such. Well, not if she had acted caring like most mothers.

So, for the principle of the matter, we got one legal contract resolved after a court proceeding where it was put on public record what she owed through binding contract, an amount which was morsels (1% of her assets) by her lofty financial means, but which her mother lied and said she did not have, thinking everyone was dumb there. Only after court ruling in our favor, did the mother then work with me in a pretentious nice way to disperse, after she and her ex husband showed up to court (without my wife/their daughter present as she would have blasted them) acting adversarial against I, making all sort of wild accusations. The court saw through their attempts and words that had no foundation, seemed impressed with our evidence and my testimony, and again, ruled in our favor.

There will be another court proceeding very soon, as my wife hired a lawyer a few weeks ago about that, with attempt to get them out of our lives by having some petition where they are not seen as "interested persons" for any legal matter, as parents are usually served for certain and many legal matters and my wife cannot handle them and their intents anymore.. They have shown throughout her life they are not concerned with her emotional, physical, financial and legal well being, and they seem to relish in her suffering.

Once, her mother even smiled when I visited her alone to drop things off, after saying her daughter was hospitalized because of unresolved conflicts with them.. Her mother even secretly contacted a church here in the US, ten years ago, after finding out her daughter was a volunteer there, playing victim to the pastor, saying we were acting crazy. And she blasted us in the past the few times she asked us if we had any troubles as she could help us if we did, and then when we told her, telling us then to grow up or get over it. No doubt all that information given was spread around to her friends in Canada, making them feel more important and powerful, and encouraging her to contact us more. My fault there for thinking she was sincere in wanting to help.

Most every email and contact I had with her family was always polite. positive and/or neutral, and not critical. And I treat my wife extremely well and do lots here to support and assist. Yet her mom kept critiquing me , with passive and aggressive statements and actions against me, and with wild accusations that I was the cause her daughter was against her and not contacting her, no matter me saying it was I that was a very fair person that can weigh properly all sides and hoped for resolution. The mother's plans were to attack the truth teller and nice guy, to deflect off their abuses and wrongs. The desire to split us up all those years was because her mom was losing that attention and control. The day their daughter's court action was resolved, when we all were superficially getting along up to that point, my wife's mother bluntly stated to us in soft tone though, "You know D**** you do not have to come here anymore." Then it started becoming more clear who she was, and what her desires were. Things deteriorated since, and the last year of visits there we never talked to her. She was pouting in her room avoiding me for whatever reason, mad that I was still visiting. Then one day her mother came out and said. "I am changing the locks." We knew what that meant. That night we packed her belongings, snuck out, crossed over after two hours of grilling by the border patrol, them giving her just a temporary visitor's visa, so my wife overstayed that visit at the advice of a lawyer ironically, and we decided to get married (without telling her parents obviously) and she applied for immigration.

Her mother the next several years tried pestering me for information and dangling those promises. I figured if they were signed agreements she would not back out. Wrong. Narcissists often have no conscience of right or wrong. They make false promises, twist things, fabricate things or try to justify their wrongs, or refuse to admit them, or they may manipulate, meddle, or go on the attack. Specifically, her mother calls us fraud artists for just wanting contracts she agreed to to be honored. She was instead the one committing fraud there creating contracts and not honoring them--and in wanting no lawyers present.. She calls us racist, yet she is the one that is that instead for not wanting her to marry a white, poor guy. She calls her daughter an imposter pretending to be her after her daughter accused her mother of bad things by email. When I asked her mother if she wanted proof it was her, she said no, stop harassing her. Narcissists are very sensitive to being seen as inferior, critiqued and wronged. They will do anything to protect their image in public eye, even to distort and lie.

So, several months ago my wife wanted me to explain in several pages to her parents why we do not like them, and will end contacts with them, despite my desires to let the final court sessions and results there to be seen as officially the end of all contacts. But, no doubt, as usual, her mother either ignores dozens of severe wrongs detailed calmly there with examples supporting the positions, or takes words I said and fabricates it to something totally else. Narcissists are good at ignoring and not admitting to things, playing victim or acting as if they are right or superior, making wild accusations, and coming across as cold,selfish, dishonest and contradictory. They feel entitled to do as they please, and yet feel accountable for nothing. We see her as a Black Widow type, and her ex husband/my wife's father, who does everything she demands, as being devoured by her too, but no saint and just as responsible. Her mother comes across as having hatred towards those seen as beneath her, or to those that call her out on her conduct and harmful intents. Things will end soon, after this final court case. We just want it on the record who her parents are, and to give my wife needed relief

 

[autism-and-autotune]

well in my case we had 5 kids together, I still had to be civil with him but I didn't have to do everything he said now, I moved to another state 12 hours away because I knew he would want me to come back and wouldn't leave me alone and if he started his yelling on the phone, I would say stop yelling or I will hang up. I still had to drop the kids off at times and pick them up so I was civil. I learned you can't argue with that kind of person because nothing you are going to say is right, and they just get more mad and agitated. So the only way I could deal with it was to either let him get his tantrum out of the way or tell him if it was over the phone I would just hang up. When he called and talked nice I would talk to him. They are hard to deal with, I will admit that! When they want something they are nice, like once he needed $200 to fix his car, so I sent it to him and he never paid me back, Then one day he called like 6 months later and he claimed I never sent him any money, I said oh yes i did and mailed him a copy of the cancelled check with his signature on the back, he got so mad at me that he called and started yelling, i guess i proved i was right and he didn't like that. I guess you can talk to them but if they get out of control, i would just say, i am not arguing with you, if you want to be civil then you can call me. that way you are not the bad guy, you have thrown it in their lap to be nice or you aren't having it.

I really like your resilience to be so calm. You're certainly stronger than I'd be in this situation.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

I started seeing other concerning signs with her mother too, like when I finally found out her mother pressured her daughter (while hospitalized then for severe anxiety and PTSD issues from more severe conflicts with her mother over the years) to agree to/sign contracts taking three life insurance policies out on her. Her mother also attempted to take one out on her own father when he had a terminal condition, and luckily at least that did not go through. Also, during her mother's divorce with her neglectful and enabling dad, but who was not as serious and critical as his wife, when their daughter was age five or so, the mother got awarded like a few millions dollars there, yet refused to put it in trust funds or other accounts for her daughter. Instead she bought investment properties with it, for her own benefit, but going grocery shopping and merchandise shopping at the very cheapest of stores, and living and acting like she was poor inside the condo, but apparently telling her friends and others, from what we later learned, how successful she was and how pathetic we were.

Well, my wife and I value character, and doing our best and living the simple life. We live meagerly, but have no desires to buy or show off expensive real estate, buy expensive vehicles, get great education and great jobs, nor could we anyway. Regarding the latter two items, they were low level legal clerk jobs her mother had even, and she had no college or university education. And she sees her as far above us. She does not even honor terms of signed contracts from monies promised her daughter, that she drafted under the table demanding no lawyers involved, but wanting it to look formal and official. She treats us like some legal client, but respects us and our rights less. The purpose of such contracts and also verbal promises is to keep her daughter in her life, knowing she provides nothing else but coldness, toxicity and abuse, but when it comes to fulfilling the terms, she stonewalls for many years and never willingly honors the terms to disburse as she likely suspected that mother/daughter relationship would be over when she does such. Well, not if she had acted caring like most mothers.

So, for the principle of the matter, we got one legal contract resolved after a court proceeding where it was put on public record what she owed through binding contract, an amount which was morsels (1% of her assets) by her lofty financial means, but which her mother lied and said she did not have, thinking everyone was dumb there. Only after court ruling in our favor, did the mother then work with me in a pretentious nice way to disperse, after she and her ex husband showed up to court (without my wife/their daughter present as she would have blasted them) acting adversarial against I, making all sort of wild accusations. The court saw through their attempts and words that had no foundation, seemed impressed with our evidence and my testimony, and again, ruled in our favor.

There will be another court proceeding very soon, as my wife hired a lawyer a few weeks ago about that, with attempt to get them out of our lives by having some petition where they are not seen as "interested persons" for any legal matter, as parents are usually served for certain and many legal matters and my wife cannot handle them and their intents anymore.. They have shown throughout her life they are not concerned with her emotional, physical, financial and legal well being, and they seem to relish in her suffering.

Once, her mother even smiled when I visited her alone to drop things off, after saying her daughter was hospitalized because of unresolved conflicts with them.. Her mother even secretly contacted a church here in the US, ten years ago, after finding out her daughter was a volunteer there, playing victim to the pastor, saying we were acting crazy. And she blasted us in the past the few times she asked us if we had any troubles as she could help us if we did, and then when we told her, telling us then to grow up or get over it. No doubt all that information given was spread around to her friends in Canada, making them feel more important and powerful, and encouraging her to contact us more. My fault there for thinking she was sincere in wanting to help.

Most every email and contact I had with her family was always polite. positive and/or neutral, and not critical. And I treat my wife extremely well and do lots here to support and assist. Yet her mom kept critiquing me , with passive and aggressive statements and actions against me, and with wild accusations that I was the cause her daughter was against her and not contacting her, no matter me saying it was I that was a very fair person that can weigh properly all sides and hoped for resolution. The mother's plans were to attack the truth teller and nice guy, to deflect off their abuses and wrongs. The desire to split us up all those years was because her mom was losing that attention and control. The day their daughter's court action was resolved, when we all were superficially getting along up to that point, my wife's mother bluntly stated to us in soft tone though, "You know D**** you do not have to come here anymore." Then it started becoming more clear who she was, and what her desires were. Things deteriorated since, and the last year of visits there we never talked to her. She was pouting in her room avoiding me for whatever reason, mad that I was still visiting. Then one day her mother came out and said. "I am changing the locks." We knew what that meant. That night we packed her belongings, snuck out, crossed over after two hours of grilling by the border patrol, them giving her just a temporary visitor's visa, so my wife overstayed that visit at the advice of a lawyer ironically, and we decided to get married (without telling her parents obviously) and she applied for immigration.

Her mother the next several years tried pestering me for information and dangling those promises. I figured if they were signed agreements she would not back out. Wrong. Narcissists often have no conscience of right or wrong. They make false promises, twist things, fabricate things or try to justify their wrongs, or refuse to admit them, or they may manipulate, meddle, or go on the attack. Specifically, her mother calls us fraud artists for just wanting contracts she agreed to to be honored. She was instead the one committing fraud there creating contracts and not honoring them--and in wanting no lawyers present.. She calls us racist, yet she is the one that is that instead for not wanting her to marry a white, poor guy. She calls her daughter an imposter pretending to be her after her daughter accused her mother of bad things by email. When I asked her mother if she wanted proof it was her, she said no, stop harassing her. Narcissists are very sensitive to being seen as inferior, critiqued and wronged. They will do anything to protect their image in public eye, even to distort and lie.

So, several months ago my wife wanted me to explain in several pages to her parents why we do not like them, and will end contacts with them, despite my desires to let the final court sessions and results there to be seen as officially the end of all contacts. But, no doubt, as usual, her mother either ignores dozens of severe wrongs detailed calmly there with examples supporting the positions, or takes words I said and fabricates it to something totally else. Narcissists are good at ignoring and not admitting to things, playing victim or acting as if they are right or superior, making wild accusations, and coming across as cold,selfish, dishonest and contradictory. They feel entitled to do as they please, and yet feel accountable for nothing. We see her as a Black Widow type, and her ex husband/my wife's father, who does everything she demands, as being devoured by her too, but no saint and just as responsible. Her mother comes across as having hatred towards those seen as beneath her, or to those that call her out on her conduct and harmful intents. Things will end soon, after this final court case. We just want it on the record who her parents are, and to give my wife needed relief

I'm sorry to read what you've all been through on account of your mother-in-law. I hope that all the problems are resolved in this court case.

I guess the take-away from this is just...to stand my ground and be firm and not give anything. Narcissists are something else, that's for sure.

 

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I agree with @trustinnerwisdom Like your mom is fishing, to see if you are weak.

I agree, too.

I'm a man, not a fish, after all.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

My perspective is that the heart felt communication went missing.
It is like you are in a safe bubble and your mum isn’t liking it. Will you take the bait or not ? She still seems to have hope.

(with your consent asking for perspectives, I got an intuitive feeling of something,I am educated in to cleanse).

Well, no one in my family has ever been the best at communicating. Usually we were civil and respectful with one another (aside from the dysfunction and abuse...) but we'd normally 'unite' whenever something big and dramatic would happen. My mother always said I could 'trust her' but I never could. Oh, she'd have flipped her lid if she'd ever found out about my journals!

She wants to have me, but not have me. Her vision of the 'perfect family' has always eluded her due to her own actions--but she'll never understand it.

 

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Forgiving is an act that benefits you, not your parents. Your parents do not need to know or understand. It has nothing to do with how wrong they were. It is not our responsibility to make parents understand their actions, apologize, or try to make things better.

You are correct, there is no point in continuing a toxic relationship.

I had horrible parents as well. No point in going into it. Just wanted to let you know I’ve been there.

In this paragraph you are making it clear you don’t want a relationship with your parents. Excellent work.

So ditch the email. Print it out and burn it. Whatever makes you feel best. Then put it behind you. I’m sure you have more enjoyable things to do.

I think you are doing well at processing your issues. It doesn’t happen overnight.

You're right; forgiving would benefit me more than them. I'm not sure that I can necessarily forgive, but I can understand the roots of their many issues.

No, it doesn't happen overnight, but I've been aware of the internal process: grief, anger, the need for revenge...but now, finally peace.

 

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Narcs will hate you for your silence. They have an insatiable need for constant attention and admiration.

I think I can spot a narc within 5 minutes of meeting them. Sometimes I can recognize them without ever having been introduced to them. They are the ones who MUST be the center of attention at all times.

Indeed; I'm using silence just to infuriate her. If things escalate--well not if, but when because I'm sure this is the iceberg tip--then it's to blocking them on the social media. I can't stand scrolling through a feed and suddenly, their faces.

I'm glad you've got that skill! I hope to hone it one day.