Can someone help me decode this message?

[autism-and-autotune]

@autism-and-autotune

I'm assuming you've confirmed your "minimum contact" policy, and made it (at least provisionally) permanent.

Given that, I think you you still need a plan.

This is because it's hard to unilaterally avoid your parents. You can move and/or disconnect from your entire extended family of course, but if you don't, you're still somewhat exposed. Someone in that group will be sentimental or weak. Narcs are neither. They're crazy, but that makes them strong in some ways.

How you do this will depend on all kinds of factors. I suggest you start ASAP by excluding some objectives.

For example it would be "nice" if you tried to improve your mother's behavior via education.
But it would be foolish. You can't fix real narcs, so there is no path towards that objective that doesn't have your mother taking up way too much of your time, and way too much space in your brain.

It might be understandable if you decided to nuke them. But why? Even in the movies, the journey of a hero who's motivated by revenge, and doesn't let it go as part of their transformation arc, always ends in tragedy.

So my suggestion is to think through all the "playground dispute" ideas, and actively decide not to pursue them. That bit can be quite fast and easy.

Then you need to start on a more nuanced objective than "avoid them forever". That's a good start, but it may not be entirely achievable.
:
:
My personal suggestion is to start by letting go completely. No anger, no resentment, no plans for helpful or harmful engagement in the future.
It may take a little while to actually let it all go and become objective.
But it sounds like your fiance is understanding, supportive and helpful (if so, give him a thumbs up from an internet stranger (me ) Active support and borrowed strength buys you time, and help to hold to your decisions
during the coming counter-attacks.

So you can set an achievable long-term objective (important) now, even if you're not ready to start on the large-scale work, and perhaps do some tactical preparation.

And a reminder at this point: this sounds dramatic because it is: someone close to you is actively interfering with your life; it doesn't matter whether they're ill, malicious or both - it's the negative affect that matters; and inaction on your part is very likely to leads to a poor outcome.
You're at stage 5 of this (use Volger's list, or one of the simpler ones from the web):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey:
:
For "tactical preparation", consider what your mother might do, with the unannounced visit you've already experienced as an example.

e.g.
* Gather information to use against you from weaker members of your family
* More unannounced visits
* If there's a family Facebook group, she'll engage there, and her stories will be manipulative, not accurate
* Misuse of the discussions at family gatherings (if there are any)
* Financial
*** Don't take anything, don't expect anything - it will be used against you
*** If your parents can interfere with your finances, they might. Change accounts, cards, even bank proactively
* etc, etc.

You don't need a complete list (or check Reddit if you want scenarios).

But you need realistic plans that you are capable of executing. Because each new attack will be aimed at your weak points.
You need answers to questions like "what will I actually do if they turn up late at night in the middle of winter?". (Possible answer - they wait in their car, send them to a restaurant to wait (bathroom access) and get them one night at a hotel (their card, you pay them back immediately with cash or some means that doesn't expose your credit card number)).

A PITA to think through such things, but moving overseas with your SO as a defensive measure would be a lot more trouble than making simple preparations now.

All of this information is super helpful--thank you.
No, I cannot fix or heal the narcissist. Some foolish part of me years ago wished that I could heal the wounds of my parents, but now...I see that it is a fool's errand.

Letting go is also hard; there's guilt and wistful 'what if's' that keep bothering me. Eventually I'll get there.

I appreciate you linking the Hero's Journey, too--very insightful.

Oh, okay--I'll consider other things of what she might do. And I stopped accepting anything from them a while back--money, anything.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

I was debating the past day or so whether or not to write this or not as it includes many personal details, and as why should I waste my time thinking about her parents anymore, but in order to benefit members here, and to show how messed up certain persons can be with intent to affect us severely for their benefit, I felt a need to be transparent as summing up like I did before does injustice to the real distress and pain–and unfairness– my wife and I really have been going together through for over nineteen years because of my wife's mother especially, which included two years as a live-in relationship at her mother's place prior to the seventeen years of marriage. It is long what I write, but it feels good telling the forum what we think of her..

So, it all started with I driving over the border each month for two to three week visits at a time (I did this for about two years) with my friend then (wife now) to support her, as she was very private about things online when we would message each other daily for hours for a year prior. She seemed friendly and energetic, but I knew she was having severe difficulties there because she was in the hospital at one point for long-stay there, did part time college courses online prior, did not drive, was homeless at one point in a shelter, had charges against her, and despite this and a year of messaging online, she did not say anything about her parents. I assumed she was either scared to talk to me about them, was very private in disclosing such things to me yet, or other.

Anyways, we met in Toronto, got along well, did scenic public things together that day, then unexpectedly she says we are meeting her mother. They lived in a high-rise condo there, yet when I met her mother something seemed off right away. I am not referring to her talking fast, as her daughter did such too, and as city life can do that too, but I meant her mother came across at first as really outwardly judgmental about me, serious, rigid and cold, not friendly, not smiling and not spontaneous either like her daughter who had more outgoing and free spirit personality. Now, I do not smile either, and it is hard for me to seem happy, but I come across as polite, relevant and modest when I talk, but usually brief and shy early on, and not very open. I was still nice and respectful to her mother, as much as I could be.

Anyway, it was a little shock to me too when her mother was very blunt and wanted to know quickly my education level, my job, what my family members did and so forth on day one, as if she wanted to know if I was marriage material, good enough for her daughter long term. I had prior told her daughter through messaging all the truths about me and my family then, and her daughter still was Ok with me visiting as she knew I was honest, put forth the efforts, with long messaging sessions and emails, and she said I seemed kind and sincere.

Despite all the mentioned initial concerns I had with her mother, her mother did eventually seem happier with me there. She said she knew she could not handle things alone, and she needed me to support and calm her daughter, try to get her out and about each day, and help her with her court case that involved her mother pressing charges on her for something. So, there was a period after the first meeting where her mother seemed somewhat Ok to me, and she even complimented me on bringing weeks of groceries over each time, doing the chores daily there without being asked, bringing a calm presence to their place, keeping her daughter busy and so forth. But, in the back of my mind I admit I wondered if her mother was using me.

Things started to worsen later. Her mother started showing herself more over time. She critiqued her daughter often daily for her appearance (not wearing dresses, makeup), for being 'lazy' for not going to traditional university, for not being successful like her. She put pressure on her daughter to have the same beliefs and achievements as those in her culture, and she refused to show a caring side to her daughter about her suffering and emotional health, never admitting fault for anything, not wanting to have talks with her or do things with her as she always said she was "so busy." Um, no. Watching tv for hours each late afternoon and evening is not being busy. She needed to prioritize better, or I just think in general she did not have that nurturing side.

Then, without I telling her mother anything about my goals and plans, and apparently without her mother ever asking prior what her daughter's goals and plans were which were to just find a nice guy and to do things slowly at her pace and in her own ways, her mother then starts putting pressure on me to go to business seminars, as her dreams were for I to get some business in Toronto, despite no interest whatsoever there. If I did not want that, I "should" work as an actuary then she said, if I would just go back to get my Masters, because I was good with Math, with that having been my major. (To Be Continued on Next Post)

I'm glad that you had the knowledge to be this observant towards her mother. To note her hypocrisy and mannerisms....she just sounds like a terrible nightmare of a human being.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Narcissists' biggest fear is strong, truth telling people. They go berserk when directly presented with truth and direct evidence that they lied. They live in perpetual fear that they will be unmasked and that everyone will know what they are. Their emotional age is about 8 years old. They are like proverbial 8-year-old bullies on the playground.

It sounds like you've found a way to handle your ex in a manner that helps you maintain your sanity.

I like what you're saying about the emotional maturity of a child; you're apt.

oh, my dream--my dream would be to let others know her for who she truly is. But would they accept it? Or would it be 'oh, you're embarrassing your mother!' in a public outing. Because the cruel crux is that by others they are heralded and seen as a saint, when in reality they're the wolf.

 

[1ForAll]

I'm sorry to read what you've all been through on account of your mother-in-law. I hope that all the problems are resolved in this court case.

I guess the take-away from this is just...to stand my ground and be firm and not give anything. Narcissists are something else, that's for sure.

Thanks. Yes, I think the risks are way more than the benefits of any contact for those who have such personalities and conditions. We are sorry for you both to have had to deal with them too, and do not rule out the intent is to break you two up, if they sense your fiance is against them. Subconsciously, if not consciously, they could know you have extreme anxiety over them when contacts are made, and from unresolved issues, so they could know this could affect your relationship. So, for that reason alone, now that I think about things more, it seems very reasonable to not even reply for that reason alone. It takes strength and empathy too to put your fiance first, and to stand your ground for issues that are important to you. Will be wishing you all the best.

 

[VAW]

I really like your resilience to be so calm. You're certainly stronger than I'd be in this situation.

awww, thank you. It is different between an Ex and your parents because you want to love them but sometimes you just can't! My parents were great so I had no worries that way. I think it is much more difficult with parents. An ex you can divorce but you can't divorce your parents and get new ones. lol

 

[Hypnalis]

Letting go is also hard; there's guilt and wistful 'what if's'

my dream would be to let others know her for who she truly is

Some comments related to these two thoughts, based on the assumption that you'd pursue a "karmic adjustment" if the opportunity presented itself.

1. Narcissists
AFAIK narcs can be born, and they can certainly be made. Either way, they're best modelled as "infinitely selfish".
That gives them a powerful linked defense and offense combination:
* Denial provides a defense that can't be directly penetrated. Whatever happens, they will (automatically and immediately) reframe it so they feel completely ok about the status quo.
* DARVO provides a simple framework for their pushing back. They know it wasn't their fault, so they know it was someone else's. RVO is the natural response.

2. Can the process be subverted?
Yes and No.
An objective like the second quote is possible, but very risky, because it's would be hard to control, with dependencies on everyone else involved. It's clear you can see that. I agree with your risk assessment.

I suggest you modify your objective(s) - there are other ways to redress the karmic balance of the universe
In general terms, you need a way to interact "productively" without triggering the denial reflex.

There are things you could do now (i.e. without completely mentally disengaging from the larger issue).
If you're interested we can discuss it via a Convo.

 

[trustinnerwisdom]

Well, no one in my family has ever been the best at communicating. Usually we were civil and respectful with one another (aside from the dysfunction and abuse...) but we'd normally 'unite' whenever something big and dramatic would happen. My mother always said I could 'trust her' but I never could. Oh, she'd have flipped her lid if she'd ever found out about my journals!

She wants to have me, but not have me. Her vision of the 'perfect family' has always eluded her due to her own actions--but she'll never understand it.

I witness it as abandonment.
Did your mother held the treads as a puppeteer maybe?
And honestly, if that’s the case, then you can ‘trust’ that version of her, so in one way she had right, but..
Many dysfunctional family has generational traumas, which is pending between uniting when something big happens and then push each other away, because closeness/vulnerability/support and so may backfire. That is a cycle which should be broken.
Keep your pastel coloured journals for yourself, no puppeteer strings around them.
By journaling, you seem to have set yourself free? In times where freedom felt scarce.

 

[AO1501]

She wants to have me, but not have me. Her vision of the 'perfect family' has always eluded her due to her own actions--but she'll never understand it.

This needs to be a sticky too, because it's the perfect description of how a narcissist will chase their own tail, and in the process take everyone down to save themselves.