Cars and car troubles

[Nitro]

Wiliam Tyler Jenkins aka The Grump or the father of Prostock Racing
Grumpy Jenkins was from my own state of Pennsylvania USA and campaigned a series of cars named "Grumpy's Toys"

 

[Warwick C]

incredible F1 footage, from different eras

 

[Warwick C]

A lap of the gods, this for 2nd place.

 

[gonzerd]

Cars and car troubles... I have one, and some.
First the car:
I bought this cheapo '91 Peugeot 205 last November. It's a bog standard edition: no rev-counter, no cigarette-lighter, but it has a manual choke. It has a mighty 1.0L (954cc actually) gas engine which is supposed to produce a whopping 45hp. I got this one because, well... I'm a poor boy so I needed something that wouldn't be too costly in terms of insurance and maintenance, and this was supposed to be a good first car. I wanted something simple, without computers and electronics to mess things up, so I could take things apart and put them together myself with basic tools. We never had a car at home as I grew up, so it's all new to me (pretty much all my car knowledge comes from watching Top Gear over and over) but I like figuring things out.

Don't mind the dirty engine bay, I'll be asking questions about how to properly clean stuff soon enough.

So now the problem:

Last weekend I went to pick it up with a friend and drove it back home (about 150km, mainly traffic-free highways) without any problem. Well... the battery was flat because it had been standing still for a couple months (last time I drove it was at the end of February), but a simple push start did the trick, and the battery recharged properly.
The next day we drove of with it and it stalled as we slowed down for a red light. It wouldn't start up so we put it on the side of the road. There I noticed we'd been driving with the choke half open, so I thought we flooded the engine (it smelt of gasoline too, but that might be because we'd been trying to start it up too long). After about an hour of letting it sit the smell was gone and it would start up all fine and dandy. We filled it up at the station because it was running low, and I thought it would be better to put some new gas in. Stopping and starting went well. Then in the middle lane of the highway, as we slowed down for the car in front it stalled again! That was quite an experience, sitting in the middle of a six way with heavy trucks and fast cars passing on either side, an angry queue building up in the back and no place to go. So we called the police and had a smoke. We eventually got towed away, I paid a rather large bill and as I got out of the office, the towing guy was driving it around as if nothing was wrong with it, saying it would be ok to drive home. So we did, or tried, because a little later it stalled again, after which we just parked it.

I went back a few times to check and basically, it starts up fine and idles for about 16 minutes. Then the engine just cuts out (no hiccups or so, just plain stopping) and it can't be started again. After about 20 minutes it would start again, no problem, but then it would shut off again after a few minutes. So I'm guessing something's overheating, but the temperature warning light doesn't turn on.

I did some research (I learned a lot the last couple of days) but before I start taking things apart and look for what's wrong exactly, I thought I'd post the findings here so the wise petrolheads could maybe check in case I'm missing out on on stuff, or if I'm about to blow myself up.

So here's what I'd like to to next time, when I have a human at my disposal to start it up as I check stuff. I figure I'll first let it run till it stalls, as that's when the problem arises. So the engine will be hot (problem?)

1. Electricity

The spark plugs are new (put those in last February)and still clean. A common problem I found on the Peugeot forums would point to the ignition coil or distributor cap and rotor being worn out and crapping out once they reach a certain temperature. I could just get some new ones, but I'd like to find what's wrong exactly, so I'd prefer to test first. But how do I do this?

• Ignition Coil
  
  I found this video. Basic method would be to take unplug the ignition coil wire from the distributor cap, hold it near the side of the engine for ground, have someone turn the starter key and see if it sparks blue. If so, no problem and move on. If yes, replace the coil. I only found that video, all the others get out multimeters, but I might not have one on the road all the time. But I don't want to get shocked too.
  
  
• Distributor
  
  Take out a spark plug wire from the engine, put in an extra spark plug, clamp a jumpstart cable on the spark plug, other side of the cable on negative of the battery, crank engine and see if it sparks. (source) I suppose I could also just hold it against a side of the engine as with the ignition coil wire.
  If it doesn't spark there (and on the other sparkplugs) I'll replace the distributor cap and rotor (and check if I can keep the old one as an emergency spare)

2. Fuel

Ok, first thing I read in this thread was that fuel goes bad (who knew, quite a few obviously, but not me). Last time I put gas in the tank was when I got it in November, so I guess I should probably find fault there. The thing is, I already filled it up again, and most additives say to add before refilling. Would those still work if the tanks already full (I could add a little fuel afterwards), and which one to get, cause we don't have Sta-Bil here? People seem to mention carburettor cleaner, but would that be the same as injector cleaner, cause that's what I find?

Anyway, I'd still have to check if fuel is coming through as I start. So what I'd think of doing is just disconnect the fuel cable leading from the pump to the carburettor at the carburettor, put the end in a glas bottle, have someone crank the engine and see if fuel comes out, and if the fuel pump is sounding ok. If not, I'll replace that one, and the filter, which seems a pretty straightforward procedure.

I also read about Vapor Lock. Maybe that's what's happening, but could that be caused by bad fuel? And I don't really have a way to test for that specific problem. Apart that in such a case there won't be any fuel coming out the fuel line too.

3. Thermostat

If the previous doesn't show a problem, I'll have a look at the thermostat, since that seems to be another component that might be causing this type of problems. There's a good description in the Haynes manual, so I don't have questions about that for now (I haven't looked into it too much yet)

Alrighty, that's quite a lot of post for very little aspieness (maybe me wanting to fix it, instead of just bringing it to a garage might count for some aspiepoints, but money might play a role there too. Nah, if I'd had all the money in the world, or garages would be free, I'd still want to fix it myself. It's a matter of pride goddammit.

Thanks for any input. I'll try to update as the repairs go along.

 

[Manuheleku]

The only thing I can think of is that the plugs may be fouled with carbon deposits if the choke was closed too much. The rich mixture could cause this.

 

[gonzerd]

The only thing I can think of is that the plugs may be fouled with carbon deposits if the choke was closed too much. The rich mixture could cause this.

Thanks. In that case I should just clean out the carburettor I suppose. (I still have to look into that, but it probably involves some carburettor cleaner )

 

[Manuheleku]

Thanks. In that case I should just clean out the carburettor I suppose. (I still have to look into that, but it probably involves some carburettor cleaner )

Also you might want to remove one or all of the spark plugs and check to see if they are fouled, they'll be really black if they are. Normally they'll be tanish colored. Also if you think you have bad gas, it'll smell like varnish.

 

[Warwick C]

It remindeds me of my third car I had A citroen AX it had the 1.2 to 1.3 L motor. motorwise the ony difference is that it has a longer stroke. I do know they use the same engine block and head.

The coil is electronic on those.

How long are your drives? My Gsa fouls plugs, I need at least 4-5 miles to get the plugs hot enough to clean them selves.

My Gsa is 1299 cc and puts out all 65 BHP and wieghs alot more than the 205.

 

[gonzerd]

Also you might want to remove one or all of the spark plugs and check to see if they are fouled, they'll be really black if they are. Normally they'll be tanish colored. Also if you think you have bad gas, it'll smell like varnish.

Oh yeah, those plugs. I thought you meant some kind of plugs/connector thingies in the carburettor. I took one spark plug out after all the stalling happened, but it looked as good as new. I read if those are black it points to the engine running rich (too much fuel, or too little air, so incomplete combustion causing carbon deposits) (I'm just repeating it to keep it in mind for future reference.)

The gas still smelt very gas-like when we flooded the engine, so I guess it might not have turned too bad. I already put it an extra 30L of fresh gasoline now, so that's probably masking any varnishy smell of the old stuff by now.

I also just read winter fuel is more prone to cause vapor lock in summer because it has a lower evaporation point, and it was a lot more start/stop traffic than the day before.

 

[Warwick C]

You might want to check out citroen AX as well they used the same motor. Mine was a intermediate size.

 

[Warwick C]

It could well be a vapour lock, it sounds like starvation or carburetor. you may have to dismatantile an clean it. if the cleaner does not work. There will be 1- 2 jets inside that may be blocked.

 

[Warwick C]

I still have a work shop manual for the AX. Mine was 1124 cc. there is also a 1360 cc that was used in them as well.

 

[gonzerd]

It remindeds me of my third car I had A citroen AX it had the 1.2 to 1.3 L motor. motorwise the ony difference is that it has a longer stroke. I do know they use the same engine block and head.

The coil is electronic on those.

How long are your drives? My Gsa fouls plugs, I need at least 4-5 miles to get the plugs hot enough to clean them selves.

My Gsa is 1299 cc and puts out all 65 BHP and wieghs alot more than the 205.

Yes, those are quite similar. They used the same TU9 engine on Citroën AX's and Saxo's, and the 106.
I haven't been driving it a lot since I got it. Just a few lessons, and then the lessons stopped and I'd just drive around on their lot, learning to park and stuff. And then the longer trip back home last weekend.

It could well be a vapour lock, it sounds like starvation or carburetor. you may have to dismatantile an clean it. if the cleaner does not work. There will be 1- 2 jets inside that may be blocked.

Ok. That seems to be something I better do once I get the car over here, in front the garage where I can work in peace and look stuff up. I did find some videos stating I could just lift the air cleaner assembly of the top of the carburettor and spray some carb cleaner in there. Maybe that would already clean it out enough to bring it home?

I should probably mention that apart from the stalling issue, the engine runs nice and responsive. There's doesn't seem to be temporary loss of power or so, and it runs smooth idling. It just cuts at a certain point.

 

[ExplosiveTMT]

My dad got me a nissan skyline as my first car, I think.
But...it doesn't go.

I'm not asking for help (I got no license).
Just thought to share that.

 

[Warwick C]

you can just undo the rubber assmbly between the air filter and carburator. there may be a clamp around each section.

I could not remember the motor code. I had to do the head gasket on my one, but that was why I got it for $150.

something else to watch is the choke cable, Ihad mine break at the knob inside.

 

[Nitro]

3020 Universal Adjustable Ignition Spark Tester | eBay

this is one of many types of spark testers available that actually load the ignition system as though the plugs are firing under full acceleration loads as the fuel is fired under compression...the only true way to test an ignition system that is inexpensive to buy and easy to use...any proper working the system will be visible and audible as the spark will appear bright blue and a loud snap will be heard each time the plug fires...use of a calibrated tester will verify that the secondary ignition is fully intact if the tester is placed on the spark cable and clamped to the sparkplug terminal.

poor fuel quality will often manifest itself as random misfiring and poor performance at all times when running,but mostly as the accelerator is pressed when pulling away under higher loads

As gasoline gets aged,it will take on a very awful smell as it turns to varnish over time...this is easiest to detect by smelling the tank at the fuel filler and if you are not familiar with the smell of good fuel,try to smell a car with fresh fuel and compare it to yours

Water in fuel will only cause intermittent misfires and should clear up after replacing the fuel with fresh stuff

Vapor lock occurs when the vacuum of the fuel pump causes the fuel to evaporate as the fuel vapor pressure is diminished,much like water boiling in a vacuum at room temperature...not very common and hardly likely anymore as modern engineering allots for that scenario...all the idiotic attempts to correct this are very improper and may only add a new set of troubles to your car (clothes pins on the fuel lines,aluminum foil,etc.)

testing the fuel pressure properly will require yet another gauge and in the case of carburetted cars can be performed at idle with the car at rest...not knowing your particular car,it would be safe to say the pressure will be low,about 3-5 pounds per square inch when normal,but you are most likely familiar with metric measuring systems and will have to research what the translation is in what you are familiar with...inadequate fuel pressure is most likely to show up under heavy acceleration and not at idle,but not completely out of the question as you have described your concerns

I have over 45 years of engine experience from very simple units to very high performance versions
As a former automotive technician and repair facility owner,I feel qualified to offer any assistance you may require if you seek further help

 

[gonzerd]

3020 Universal Adjustable Ignition Spark Tester | eBay

this is one of many types of spark testers available that actually load the ignition system as though the plugs are firing under full acceleration loads as the fuel is fired under compression...the only true way to test an ignition system that is inexpensive to buy and easy to use...any proper working the system will be visible and audible as the spark will appear bright blue and a loud snap will be heard each time the plug fires...use of a calibrated tester will verify that the secondary ignition is fully intact if the tester is placed on the spark cable and clamped to the sparkplug terminal.

poor fuel quality will often manifest itself as random misfiring and poor performance at all times when running,but mostly as the accelerator is pressed when pulling away under higher loads

As gasoline gets aged,it will take on a very awful smell as it turns to varnish over time...this is easiest to detect by smelling the tank at the fuel filler and if you are not familiar with the smell of good fuel,try to smell a car with fresh fuel and compare it to yours

Water in fuel will only cause intermittent misfires and should clear up after replacing the fuel with fresh stuff

Vapor lock occurs when the vacuum of the fuel pump causes the fuel to evaporate as the fuel vapor pressure is diminished,much like water boiling in a vacuum at room temperature...not very common and hardly likely anymore as modern engineering allots for that scenario...all the idiotic attempts to correct this are very improper and may only add a new set of troubles to your car (clothes pins on the fuel lines,aluminum foil,etc.)

testing the fuel pressure properly will require yet another gauge and in the case of carburetted cars can be performed at idle with the car at rest...not knowing your particular car,it would be safe to say the pressure will be low,about 3-5 pounds per square inch when normal,but you are most likely familiar with metric measuring systems and will have to research what the translation is in what you are familiar with...inadequate fuel pressure is most likely to show up under heavy acceleration and not at idle,but not completely out of the question as you have described your concerns

I have over 45 years of engine experience from very simple units to very high performance versions
As a former automotive technician and repair facility owner,I feel qualified to offer any assistance you may require if you seek further help

Thanks! I reckoned you'd come up with lots of useful information. I went to the local car equipment store and low and behold, no ignition spark tester to be found; I bought a test light instead.
Ran some tests and the coil wouldn't produce a spark under hot conditions. So it's probably either the coil or the ignition module. I tried to test that too, but I wasn't sure how to. I know the light is supposed to go on and off, but it just kind of flickered, like it didn't get the right amount of power, which could be because of the extra power going to the starter engine I guess. It did this under hot and cold conditions, but the test was probably not done right anyway. I'll try to find some info on that today.

I did take the coil out and brought it home for reference. It was quite easy to do. Maybe I'll do it more often, just to annoy any underachieving car thief.

To be continued...

 

[Warwick C]

I hope it works out for you Gonzerd, that is the equivalent of the coil with them.

 

[doordoctor]

my newest issue with cars (well my dad's truck to be exact) 2008 Yukon Denali,

no sounds, no turn signal clicking noise, no back up assist noise (beep when you get close to something)

I suspect it's a 15a or 30a fuse under the hood or needs some form of software update on the amp (under center console) so I went looking around and found TIS2web.service.gm.com, well the site don't work(server unavailable), to find out in some British site for Opal cars that it is nothing more then what USA/north America sees as ALLDATADIY site for mechanics. I guess I will find out when my dad gets home, the truck started the problem while he was working.


why is it, these car makers have to make EVERYTHING electronic, can't they leave the most important things ANALOG?! (turn signals ESPECIALLY/door chime) I only see one advantage of putting all the car's warning signals/beeps and chimes through the radio, you can adjust the volume level.



newest of small engines problems, 6 hp (I think) pressure washer, only way I can run that is if I have it fully choked, if not, it will stall when I start to use it, then (stupid me) finds out it's the carburetor starving for fuel to find out there is a small passageway in the bolt holding the bowl on carb (not primer bulb type) the passageway was clogged, so have to keep it clean (I am using clean gas too)


what next??...........

 

[doordoctor]

update on yukon, my dad called just now to ask if we have any mini 30a fuses (just what I thought) looks like I am out of luck and need to find one or buy one somewhere..... least I don't have to try to update the amp....