"Curing Autism", this bothers me

[Crossbreed]

Without the interference of religious groups and other special interest groups of any kind.

Those opinions are independent of their spiritual profession.

I know of three paradigms for the spectrum.

1. A neuro-psych model would be the gold standard, but it is inconclusive. It generally presumes that the whole spectrum is defective to varying degrees.
2. Educational psychology has a good working model of giftedness & ASD1, but 2 & 3 exhibit pathology in addition to neuro-divergence. Compared to the above, it is a black box approach.
3. Those who are versed in neither of the above are pretty much grasping at straws for the cause(s) of autism, even though severe co-morbids are their primary motivation.
4. All three of the above have their sheep/followers who believe in these models without understanding their bases.

A person can be any one of the above and still be a genuine Christian, just like being a Christian does not guarantee that one is competent as an auto mechanic.

 

[Judge]

Those opinions are independent of their spiritual profession.

I know of three paradigms for the spectrum.

1. A neuro-psych model would be the gold standard, but it is inconclusive. It generally presumes that the whole spectrum is defective to varying degrees.
2. Educational psychology has a good working model of giftedness & ASD1, but 2 & 3 exhibit pathology in addition to neuro-divergence. Compared to the above, it is a black box approach.
3. Those who are versed in neither of the above are pretty much grasping at straws for the cause(s) of autism, even though severe co-morbids are their primary motivation.
4. All three of the above have their sheep/followers who believe in these models without understanding their bases.

A person can be any one of the above and still be a genuine Christian, just like being a Christian does not guarantee that one is competent as an auto mechanic.

I have no issues one way or another regarding your personal views which you keep repeating. I don't care if one is an atheist or a member of any religion. I just don't see it as having any relevance when it comes to an understanding of medicine and/or science.

Be a Christian or an atheist if it pleases you, but don't claim it to be an acceptable catalyst to promote science and medicine. That's my point you seem to be missing in accordance with the original post. And while science is seldom stagnant, it can move at a snail's pace for indeterminate amounts of time. However just because science doesn't have the answers we want today doesn't preclude them from discovering them tomorrow. And in the course of discovery, there may eventually be an acknowledgement that there is no "cure" to be found in this particular equation. Just substantial room for improvement on many levels- socially, medically and scientifically.

Leaving religion and its often historically toxic reactionary dogma out of the equation altogether. A pity that the father of modern science (Galileo Galilei) can't weigh in on such a discussion. A point tragically central to my argument.

 

[AprilR]

Religious people who think of autism as something bad is confusing to me. Since someone/something created by God can't be bad naturally.

I have had quite positive experiences with religious communities and people. In fact i find most of them are more accepting of autistic people or people with other disabilities. That made me feel closer to the community i live in. (although where i live most of the population is muslim)

 

[Au Naturel]

I'd love to be "cured," even this late in my life. Being on the spectrum has brought me far more pain than benefit. I consider it about as useful as tinnitus. At the same time, I'm bright enough to know there's no cure. The greatest pain of all is not accepting reality. Wanting things that cannot be changed to change. The more you want it, the more it ruins your life.

Only by accepting that "I yam what I yam" do I find any happiness. I adapt where I can and maintain separation where I cannot.

I also find happiness in understanding that autism is just one part of me. It does not define me. I am more than social cluelessness, intermittent stimming, and obsessive interests. The human part comes before any random subgroup (age, race, gender, sexual preference, neurodiversity) I happen to be stuck in.

I'm a person who happens to have autistic traits, but I don't allow that to define who I am. I'm also a nudist, straight, white, older, married, blogger, photographer, college-educated, retired, ADD-riddled, animal lover, and nature lover with science, art, and political interests. Plus many other factors I haven't listed. None of those things define me. All of them are part of me and my general humanity.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I'm planning my suicide today. Traditional coping has failed. Holding out longer has just brought me more of it. The cycle will never be broken. There is only one answer to my eternal dilemma, and I will make sure it is painless and quick.


I'm sorry, everyone. Please pray for me to find peace. I love you all and I hope to God life doesn't hurt you guys as bad as it has hurt me.

Please don't kill yourself. I know I felt old and mature at 26, but from my current view point (69) I can say that life is very different now. You are way too young to give up. Please.

Physical abuse of a disabled individual is a felony in my state. Can you go to a hospital emergency room and ask for help?

It is clear you need to get away from the people who are abusing you. Depending on where you live, you could get services simply by running away to a homeless shelter. The conditions there wouldn't be great, but they can help you get somewhere settled and the help you need.

Can you tell your doctor about the abuse at home?

Depending on where you live, you might be able to get on a developmental disabilities waiver and get services that would help you live on your own. In my state, being homeless would make your situation a crisis and services are provided more quickly than usual.

I hope you can get some help to get you away from your abusers.

 

[Streetwise]

I'm watching a documentary on conspiracy theories (American based) from here in Canada

Twice in the documentary I've heard comments from Christian groups in the United States about curing Autism, this really bothers me... As an active Christian, I have never heard such a suggestion within my church tradition, and doesn't medical science say there isn't a cure for it anyway?

A couple years ago I did meet one Christian lady here who I had a conversation with, and ask me if I wanted to be cured of Autism? I think you probably know my answer...

Is this kind of thinking a "thing" in some Christian communities? I'm not liking that at all, I know my church and denomination isn't that way

some followers of Yeshua in the USA is only some ,they don't represent all followers

 

[Uppity Creek]

God knew what imperfections I'd have 10,000 years before I was born. He gave me unique skillsets which I can use, if I choose, to make this earth a better place while I'm stumbling about. Like Moses, like some roughshod fishermen, as the woman at the well, I'm a mangled-up mess, ripe for redemption. I admit, I could stand to be cured of many things, from sciatica to nearsightedness to the scratch on my finger. Put me in the camp that doesn't wish to be saved from Asperger's, but would give $5 and a ham samwich to anyone who could remedy some of its symptoms. Don't rewire my brain-stay away from there, science! (And some of you humans standing under a steeple, too!) But, can you set me up with a booster, or an attenuator, stuff like that.

And...thanks for posting that video of the White's, Crossbreed. That's long been one of my favorites; I pull it up on YouTube every now and then.

 

[Polchinski]

I see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, the concept of a cure implies that autistics are somehow inferior. On the other hand, what if some autistics actually want a cure? Shouldn't the option be available to them?

I just thought of a creative solution. What if they design two types of conversion therapies. One is converting NT people to autistics and the other is converting autistics to NT. And then neither group would be regarded as inferior. People would just be voting with their feet so to speak.

Why would NT-s want to convert to autistics? Well, if they read about the benefits of being autistic, such as lack of prejudice and/or superior skills in certain areas. And why would autistics want to be converted to NT? Well, to gain acceptance. So lets develop both therapies in parallel.

Well I guess the problem with this is that nobody would want to fund a therapy of converting NT-s to autistics. So we are back to square one I guess. So major change of mentality is in order.

The other problem is that this whole analogy with gay issue would imply conversion of straight to gay, which is just gross -- particularly as a Christian I wouldn't support that kind of thing.

And by the way autistic vs NT shouldn't be lumped together with gay vs straight since Bible teaches against homosexuality but it doesn't teach against autism. I would say Jesus would be supportive of autistics since much of his mission was to defend the rejects against the mainstream that rejects them. Not gays though. Because his whole point was the way people "replace the commandments of God with traditions of men". Gays violate commandments of God. Autistics violate tranditions of men. So lumping the two together is precisely what Jesus was AGAINST.

Anyway, given how many people are secular, that argument won't fly either. So the tendency of secular people to lump gays with autistics is yet another problem to be dealt with.

Long story short. Logically speaking, I can think of some creative solutions. But on practice, it is easier said than done.

 

[Kalinychta]

My mother’s narcissist Orthodox husband quickly converted her to his Christianity as soon as he sunk his fangs in, and now she won’t talk about autism with me. I guess apparently it either doesn’t exist and/or is a sin? Who knows. Religion is a form of mental illness as far as I’m concerned. It’s perverted and cruel, so as far as a cure for autism goes, I am much more interested in a cure for religion, which would do the world exponentially more good.

 

[Crossbreed]

I guess apparently it either doesn’t exist and/or is a sin? Who knows. Religion is a form of mental illness as far as I’m concerned. It’s perverted and cruel, so as far as a cure for autism goes,...

I do not know how the Orthodox roll, but Christianity in my experience, is not incompatible with autism.
Some churches are just like any other social club and we are strangers to them.
Others bridge the communication gap between NT & autism quite nicely.

 

[NB79]

In my experience God has helped me and he is up there.
Thats the 'big step' on your mind when trying to discuss stuff like this, either God exists or not
Is not worth to follow Christianity if its not true.
So then for a christian, do you think they will have too much problems believing God can alleviate some of their autistic issues? because he created the universe after all.

 

[Forest Cat]

I was thinking about this, "curing autism". When we use the word "cure" it sounds like we are talking about a disease. Like leprosy. It sounds bad. I understand why many people are against talking about 'curing it'. But at the same time, for me personally it doesn't make life better. It creates problems, it makes my life more difficult. When I was younger I looked at some of my friends who seemed so care free and easy going and there was no way for me to be like that. And I often thought it would be so nice to not be me and be more like them. I always had this thing I called "the invisible wall" between me and the world.

But on the other hand, if I didn't have ASD I would be a different person and maybe I would be a total ass? Just a terrible guy, worse than I am now. That wouldn't be good. Who knows, I don't know what to think about this, I don't think I need to be cured but it would be nice to have less problems. I'm more alone than I would like to be because of ASD, so that's not great.

 

[Rodafina]

…worse than I am now. That wouldn't be good

I think you’re a better person than you think.

 

[Au Naturel]

I was thinking about this, "curing autism". When we use the word "cure" it sounds like we are talking about a disease. Like leprosy. It sounds bad. I understand why many people are against talking about 'curing it'. But at the same time, for me personally it doesn't make life better. It creates problems, it makes my life more difficult. When I was younger I looked at some of my friends who seemed so care free and easy going and there was no way for me to be like that. And I often thought it would be so nice to not be me and be more like them. I always had this thing I called "the invisible wall" between me and the world.

But on the other hand, if I didn't have ASD I would be a different person and maybe I would be a total ass? Just a terrible guy, worse than I am now. That wouldn't be good. Who knows, I don't know what to think about this, I don't think I need to be cured but it would be nice to have less problems. I'm more alone than I would like to be because of ASD, so that's not great.

If I were "me" and didn't have autism, the odds are I'd be an ordinary person. Ordinary people are not asses.

Take away my "quirks" - and maybe a few points of IQ - and I can't think of any aspect of my life that would not have been improved. I don't have any savant skills to lose. I don't have any useful abilities that NT people don't have too. The jobs and promotions I didn't get, the social friction I've experienced, the teasing and bullying, the angry parents and teachers, the difficulty in romance, and me all the while wondering what was wrong with me. And the people with their "If you'd only just..." solutions that couldn't help me. (Not bad people, just unable to put themselves in my place.)

Very often, an autistic person ends up hating themself or hating the world. There is go "gift" that is worth that.

But it is all a fantasy and not a useful one. It is what it is and one has to find a way.

 

[Polchinski]

My mother’s narcissist Orthodox husband quickly converted her to his Christianity as soon as he sunk his fangs in, and now she won’t talk about autism with me. I guess apparently it either doesn’t exist and/or is a sin? Who knows. Religion is a form of mental illness as far as I’m concerned. It’s perverted and cruel, so as far as a cure for autism goes, I am much more interested in a cure for religion, which would do the world exponentially more good.

Just because some people MISUSE religion in this way, doesn't mean that that is all religion is about. If you read the Gospels, you will see that the bulk of the argument between Jesus and the Pharesees was all about the way Jesus claimed how Pharesees misused religion. In Jesus' words, Pharesees "used as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7,8). Today's religions people are the same way.

However, that is not to say that God is okay with gays and stuff like that. Because when it comes to things like homosexuality then Bible condemns it. However, you will not find the Bible ever condemning autism. So just because both gays and autistics are minorities, and Bible is against gays you can't just automatically decide that Bible is against autistics too. Its not! In fact, Jesus spent much of his time DEFENDING the ostracized, which would include autistics.

As far as Christians, yes I saw Christians that have bad attitude towards autism. But Christians do not represent Christianity as a whole. It is always important to go back to the Bible and see whether Bible actually backs up what Christians you are talking to believe.

With this prelude, I had some bad experiences with Christians. In particular, I remember Christians saying autism is demonic and autistics need deliverance. But, what I realized later, is that this whole deliverance business is part of Pentacostal/Charismatic movement. Those particular Christians didn't identify themselves as such, but it is common practice to purposely skip the name of your denomination in order not to lose authority in case your audience doesn't like that denomination. But from what I learned later, they were almost certain Pentacostal/Charismatic. I wouldn't find Baptist talking about deliverance and stuff. If only I knew it back then, I wouldn't have taken it so personally.

I don't know much about Orthodox Christianity as I only came to believe in Jesus when I was in US, so the Christianity I was focused on was various branches of Protestantism. But my advice would be: try to find out whether what you are dealing with is specific to Orthodoxy. Don't dismiss the whole Christianity just because you don't like certain denominations. Find the denominations where you fit in better.

 

[Polchinski]

I was thinking about this, "curing autism". When we use the word "cure" it sounds like we are talking about a disease. Like leprosy.

Well, a disease doesn't have to be leprosy. It can be common cold. So yes, common cold is still bad, but it won't make you a pariah.

So maybe with autism the problem is really the history, that historically its been viewed more like leprosy than common cold, at least they were treated that way. Which means that maybe just convince people to view it as common cold and, once you succeed at it, go ahead and call it a disease.

But then again, what about not being able to play piano? Is it a disease? If not, then why would not being able to socialize be a disease?

I guess disease vs non-disease is all relative and there isn't black or white ways of drawing the line. Which would have been fine if it wasn't for the social implications. So deal with social implications by convincing NT-s to be more accepting of it (however you choose to call it), and the rest would become moot.

 

[Uppity Creek]

In the bible, being unable to walk, or being blind or being what I would consider schizophrenic...were considered things that were worthy of cures. The woman who had a long-lasting bleeding problem, I'm guessing, had some sort of "feminine" issue? Of course, leprosy was especially problematic as it was contagious. But the bible doesn't talk exactly about our condition and it's need for fixing, at least not that I've seen.

My wife continues to lay hands on me and pray for my Autism to be cured; she continues to chastise me for not praying for healing myself. And I continue to find the whole thing quite uncomfortable.

 

[Crossbreed]

But, what I realized later, is that this whole deliverance business is part of Pentacostal/Charismatic movement. Those particular Christians didn't identify themselves as such, but it is common practice to purposely skip the name of your denomination in order not to lose authority in case your audience doesn't like that denomination. But from what I learned later, they were almost certain Pentacostal/Charismatic.

Pentecostals can be hit-or-miss, but I have found Charismatics to be very accommodating. I highly recommend deliverance where applicable, but it does not adversely affect one's autism.

In my campaign against severe co-morbids, I much prefer being a healthy autistic than an unhealthy one.

 

[Polchinski]

In the bible, being unable to walk, or being blind or being what I would consider schizophrenic...were considered things that were worthy of cures. The woman who had a long-lasting bleeding problem, I'm guessing, had some sort of "feminine" issue? Of course, leprosy was especially problematic as it was contagious. But the bible doesn't talk exactly about our condition and it's need for fixing, at least not that I've seen.

My wife continues to lay hands on me and pray for my Autism to be cured; she continues to chastise me for not praying for healing myself. And I continue to find the whole thing quite uncomfortable.

One of my favorite chapters is John Chapter 9, which says the following:

9 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

and then at the end it says

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

This pretty much shows that he doesn't view blind as sinful but instead he views self righteous as the sinful ones.

However, with other things, especially epilepsy, Jesus' attitude is quite a bit different. Take the following verses for example:

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

So, pulling this together, you can see that blindness is NOT demonic while epilepsy IS demonic.

I think autism is more along the lines of blindness though. For one thing, it is "social blindness". And, apart from that, Jesus was against the popular and siding with rejects. So thats what makes me feel like the verses about the blind man are a lot more applicable.

 

[Polchinski]

Pentecostals can be hit-or-miss, but I have found Charismatics to be very accommodating.

I was assuming that Pentacostals and Charismatics are the same thing? What is the difference between them?

I highly recommend deliverance where applicable, but it does not adversely affect one's autism.

I am not talking about adverse effects. I am saying that why deliver from demons if there are none?

Like on the example with blind man (cited in previous response) I don't think it can be classified as deliverance because by Jesus' own words he wasn't demon possessed. So I guess not all healing is deliverance.

Now, the main problem with "deliverance from demons" when there are no demons is that you are telling the world that someone is demonic when they aren't, hence you are exposing that person to prejudice.

Other than that, I don't think it can be good or bad. Any more than trying to clean dishes that are already sparkling clean.