Dating: How can I get a girlfriend?

[Gerald Wilgus]

You stated that sex can be free of physiological restraints. How can something be physiological but not be restrained by physiology?

Over millennia, the standards of beauty have morphed at lightning speed compared to genetic change, yet looking at artist depictions there was much harmony between the female form during each era and the ideal of beauty at the time. There is a lot of cultural conditioning to achieve this, and the mind is the final arbiter of go/nogo before the physiological reflexes take over, unless you want to argue down to the biochemical level.

 

[Jordy]

Over millennia, the standards of beauty have morphed at lightning speed compared to genetic change, yet looking at artist depictions there was much harmony between the female form during each era and the ideal of beauty at the time. There is a lot of cultural conditioning to achieve this, and the mind is the final arbiter of go/nogo before the physiological reflexes take over, unless you want to argue down to the biochemical level.

Shifts in Culturally praised physical traits hardly disproves that there is a some biological basis for the way in which people select their sexual mates. Has there been a culture at any time were humans were turned of by facial symmetry, secondary sexual characteristics, or signs indicating of health and vitality?

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Well, show me an instance of data that has been observed in the future? The only fact is that these studies held in the past had the results that they had, superimposing a model into them, and then using that model to make a prediction doesn't produce another fact. It's a fact that the sun came up yesterday, it's not a fact that it will tomorrow, its a mere assumption.




I don't think that, it seemed like you did, that's why i asked. You stated that sex can be free of physiological restraints. How can something be physiological but not be restrained by physiology?

Your assertions are ridiculous. A cosmos which is natural and material will have cause and effect uniform over time and across the cosmos. Plus you are ignorant of anthropology and its teaching of different measures of beauty and sexuality which are culturally driven.

 

[Jordy]

A cosmos which is natural and material will have cause and effect uniform over time and across the cosmos.

That's only an assumption not a fact. Its an assumption that i also make, but its not a fact.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

That's only an assumption not a fact. Its an assumption that i also make, but its not a fact.

It is a principle. You are woefully ignorant of science, its history and Natural Philosophy. You argue like a creationist.

Bye.

 

[Jordy]

Plus you are ignorant of anthropology and its teaching of different measures of beauty and sexuality which are culturally driven.

Even if humans sexual attraction is entirely driven by culture (I don't think it is), the fact that humans are influenced by what their peers will consider attractive could still be rooted in biology, in which case biology is still putting a restraint on what they find sexually attractive. An animal that has a mental concept of culture, and who's sexual attraction is influenced by culture is biological diffirent from one that doesn't.

Back on the topic of the thread, it's not like someone can just engineer their culture have a diffirent concept beauty, so if someone finds themselves outside of the "arbitrary cultural concept of beauty" there is not much they can do about their situation. It doesn't suddenly mean that a person has more freedom in finding a mate.

 

[Jordy]

It is a principle. You are woefully ignorant of science, its history and Natural Philosophy.

Bye.

Well fundamental principle not an assumption, it's still not something that you can know to hold with certainty.

You argue like a creationist.

I didn't really make an argument against using science.

 

[Allen H]

There have been a number of comments on taking a non-traditional approach to getting to know someone without going the western "dating" route. This makes sense for Aspies, who lack social skills and don't know what to say or do on "dates." So I went that route. I was a seemingly hopeless Aspie bachelor at age 50 when I decided that I wanted a family. Since time was running out, I went right for it. I found an ad for a "pen pal" by a 19 year old girl from an Asian country and responded to it. There is usually a subtext to "pen pal" adds, an implicit suggestion that things might go beyond the pen pal stage if the correspondents "hit it off." Well, we did. For over a year we wrote back and forth (good old snail mail in the 90's - not emails) getting to know each other's interests and values (very important to have common ground where moral values are concerned). After 15 months of this I flew over to her country and met the girl and her family. I proposed on the spot, and had to wait until her family conferred and gave approval. They did. (They don't have the Western hangups about age differences in her country.) As soon as we could schedule the wedding, I flew back over and married her in her own country. Then I brought her to the USA as soon as the paperwork could get done.

We will be celebrating our Silver Anniversary in May. We still joke that she was my "mail order bride."

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

There have been a number of comments on taking a non-traditional approach to getting to know someone without going the western "dating" route. This makes sense for Aspies, who lack social skills and don't know what to say or do on "dates." So I went that route. I was a seemingly hopeless Aspie bachelor at age 50 when I decided that I wanted a family. Since time was running out, I went right for it. I found an ad for a "pen pal" by a 19 year old girl from an Asian country and responded to it. There is usually a subtext to "pen pal" adds, an implicit suggestion that things might go beyond the pen pal stage if the correspondents "hit it off." Well, we did. For over a year we wrote back and forth (good old snail mail in the 90's - not emails) getting to know each other's interests and values (very important to have common ground where moral values are concerned). After 15 months of this I flew over to her country and met the girl and her family. I proposed on the spot, and had to wait until her family conferred and gave approval. They did. (They don't have the Western hangups about age differences in her country.) As soon as we could schedule the wedding, I flew back over and married her in her own country. Then I brought her to the USA as soon as the paperwork could get done.

We will be celebrating our Silver Anniversary in May. We still joke that she was my "mail order bride."

I am so happy for you and risking things for your happiness.

 

[Ms Muffinz]

I don’t know if this will help, but I am grinnin

Science , while supported by some constrained forms of logic, is an empirical science. Your assumptions about physiology, which you do not state, means that you lack actual concrete material examples for your conclusions. Logic and aristotelian reasoning does not substitute for observable fact.

Statements in your (non) Axiom 2 are woefully ignorant of neurophysiology and neuropsych. You seem to conflate the brainstem, limbic system and neocortex and do not recognize the operation of the modular brain, especially within the discussion of emergent properties (The great split between Wallace and Darwin). I suggest you study Steven Pinker's How the Mind Works. Your ideas about behavior fixation and strength I hope you know are in error, especially within a modular brain/mind.

Your reasoning in light of any lack of training in the Biological Sciences is much like what is known as a Gish Gallop . . . . an argument so filled with falsehood that one is puzzled where to start with refutation.

I am sorry to be so blunt as I try to be circumspect, but I dislike people who ignore the Biological Sciences yet feel free to pontificate without evidence. Provide the factual basis for your statements

[Added] Sex and bonding is a basic human need, that I agree with. There are milestones within the timeframe of human psychosocial development that are necessary for balanced mental health. For me, for many Autistic suffering social delays, this creates profound problems with self image and body image. My social dysfunction has resulted in PTSD from social and sexual isolation. I now struggle against misogynistic thoughts which are alien to my being in the world.

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but I’ve already stated all the things you point out.
I’m coming from a place of ignorance (which I’ve stated explicitly). I literally wrote that my thinking comes from logical reasoning, and that I acknowledge the axioms may be wrong.
My thinking is wrong and coming from a place of ignorance. Which is what I literally wrote in the post.

That said, can you answer my questions about the article?
Can you provide some concrete examples as to what the person means when they say that cultural g can come into effect in “seconds to several decades?”.
And do you have any additional sources on how this affects bonding and mating and how romantic relationships come into play?

 

[Ms Muffinz]

I’m still don’t understand why dating is necessary. Maybe I can make a thread about this. Why do people date?

And as a disclaimer, I’m not claiming to be an expert on any of these topics. In fact I am completely ignorant and posting this in hopes of learning and starting a conversation. If one had to become an expert on a topic before posting, very few posts will be allowed.
It is better to reveal one’s ignorance and have it corrected than to keep it hidden.
I post it here, because if I post this in a neurotypical forum, I will be accused of trolling.

Marriage, I understand. It’s an institution to raise children.
Arranged marriages, I understand. It’s a way to make a marriage.
But what is dating? What is the purpose of a casual sexual relationship? Are they the same? Are they different?

Courting existed in medieval Europe among the higher classes.
But my understanding is that this was a precursor to marriage — I doubt they would court for the sake of courting (I could be wrong). And my understanding is that they wouldn’t kiss or have sex.

In the modern age (post WW2, especially after the sexual revolution), in western society, people must go through a dating phase before marriage.
The dating phase usually includes emotional intimacy and sexual intercourse.
The dating phase supposedly serves two purposes: to select a partner, and for emotional/sensory/sexual pleasure (again, this could be wrong. I need to start somewhere).

Selecting a partner, I understand somewhat. It makes rational sense to compare between several people and choose the one most well suited.
The problem I see in real life though, is that people are not necessarily selecting for the best. Timing matters, and even though the partner at the time may not be the best, one may end up choosing to marry them, because they were at the right point in time.
Oftentimes people marry because of a pregnancy. They would have not gotten married otherwise, which shows the partner was not selected for quality.
Another problem is when to stop looking. It is called the secretary problem in hobby math. You can keep looking and looking and never settle … at which point you run out of time, or have missed the best candidate already.
I realize I am strawmanning — I hope to Ironman the argument at some point in the future.

The next reason to date is for pleasure, emotional/sexual/sensory.
Have people dated in the past? I have no idea.

If I didn’t have my sensory difficulties, and difficulties with polite conversation, and intense emotions, perhaps casual dating may have been pleasant.
The pleasure may have been enough to compensate for what I have to give up, which is my free time to maintain my health and sanity, and time to spend on special interests, and time to earn money so I can continue to live independently.
The emotional effort of caring for an additional human being’s problems, and caring for them.
For me personally, the cost is great.

The Ironman argument is that loving somebody generates energy. It makes you stronger, and thus more capable. I can understand that.
Another Ironman argument is that human experience reigns supreme over all other matters. The experience of love is more important than materialistic conditions like how much money you have, or your physical health. I understand this also.


I think I should stress I am not opposed to romantic relationships at all. People should do what makes them happy, and be free to do so. Also, I’ve had positive experiences with romantic relationships. Within these few years I have been attached to somebody romantically, and they reciprocated, and it was a good experience. I do understand the appeal.

But I am trying to understand what the purpose of it is, and whether there is a good reason to follow the rules here. “Because it feels good” is not a strong enough reason to pursue something of this magnitude, to me at least.

My question, in the most crude terms is: “Why should I have sex with someone? What do I get out of it?”

It makes sense if we were married, as that is part of the mutual agreement. But why should I invest my time into a romantic relationship, which by definition can be broken up at any arbitrary time without any serious consequences, or constraints by law?
And why force people to go through the dating phase? What is gained by this? Some people want to start a family. Why delay this with a forced waiting period?

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I’m still don’t understand why dating is necessary. Maybe I can make a thread about this. Why do people date?

This has been argued about for ages. Dating and how we approach it is a dynamic cultural construct. All I can answer to is my motivation. As an Aspie, my social maturity was profoundly delayed. Even as I had the same needs and wants as my peers, being able to realize them was distorted by as much as 5 sigma past normal. This created problems of inexperience for me. All I could do is attempt to connect and jump at the opportunity to learn who made the best friends and who harmonized with the way I wanted to live in the world. Even then I was still inexperienced and probably too naive for sex. In other posts I have described how I met my future spouse. The circumstances were intense and when we started dating we already knew we wanted to be together. The dating over a year was the negotiation over how we were going to live.

About the sexual revolution. It is a sore point for me as living through it, the revolution washed over me without getting me damp.

To answer your questions with authority, I would need to have training and experience in social anthropology.

BTW, G is the generation time for a feature, genetic or cultural to be transmitted in a population. The speed of cultural transmission can be measured by everything from the spread of flint knapping styles to the spread of the three sisters agriculture. The only speed up of genetic transmission came with improvements in transportation, increasing the pool of potential mates. Population geneticists have commented on that.

 

[Ms Muffinz]

BTW, G is the generation time for a feature, genetic or cultural to be transmitted in a population. This can be measured by everything from the spread of flint knapping styles to the spread of the three sisters agriculture.

So you’ve cited two examples, one a technology, and another an innovation in farming. Does g apply to sex, marriage, intimacy?
An abstract statement about the cosmos, or capital N Nature, is not convincing to me.

For example, premarital cohabitation is associated with greater odds of divorce (source 1 reviews papers for the layman).
“Forty-eight percent of women interviewed in 2006-2010 cohabited with a partner as a first union, compared with 34% of women in 1995” (from source 2).

48% is common, at least in my opinion, but I think this is a reasonable assessment.

Why have we not adapted to it yet?
If we continue premarital cohabitation for 20 more years, will this effect go away?

And there is another thing that needs to be explained: why does cultural g kick in for some things and not others?
How do we know it kicks in for romantic relationships or premarital sex, and not for smartphone usage or social media perhaps? What is the difference?
This is why the argument is not convincing to me (yet).

Source 1
https://ifstudies.org/blog/premarital-cohabitation-is-still-associated-with-greater-odds-of-divorce
Source 2

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24988817/

 

[tree]

This discussion seems to be veering fairly far afield from
practical insight that could result in OP actually developing
skills required for getting a date.

How about future replies be directed toward that end?

What can he be doing that would be likely to increase
his social capabilities/the likelihood of female company?

 

[Ms Muffinz]

Isn't dating just a way to get to know someone? You meet someone interesting, you go out on dates and eat dinner, watch a movie or go sky diving or whatever. To spend time with that person and get to know her or him. So "dating" is short for "spending time with someone and getting to know them". So that's what Markness wants, meet someone and get to know them. It would be a little weird to meet someone and immediately get married and start a family and then get to know them.

My point is that the modern “get to know” step automatically includes sex, unless you are both from a strict religion and make it explicit in the beginning. And it’s a tiny majority of people that abstain from sex.

People used to get married without this extra sex step — they will get to know each other through family and friends. This step may takes years, depending, but it would still be there.

 

[Primrose]

@Markness

You seem to have a negative view of yourself and your situation and women are probably picking up on that.

I think it would help a lot if you could work on feeling better about yourself. Focus more on your strengths, your good qualities, what you can offer a girlfriend. You seem like a nice guy and you need to have more confidence in yourself.

 

[Aspychata]

Seriously great points here. @Markness , you maybe running towards a relationship with great speed, but then you realized that you are dating a manipulative conniving hateful person, so then you can't run away fast enough. So the point is don't just settle for any relationship just because. There has to be a foundation of morals, standards, etc.

I agree totally with the posts talking of manipulative relationships. I have been pursued by deadbeats where l live probably because l own a reasonable place to live in, and rent is out of control, especially if these types have an aversion to working. So to escape this, l went back to a previous relationship. So one choice is just less worse then the other choice l guess.

I endured being stalked by a guy in another state for four years. Men have no idea what battlegrounds woman walk thru. I have suffered sexual harassment in 90% of the jobs l have had. So if woman don't want to date, it could be as simple as that, we are traumatized from past experiences. Then throw in abusive so called friends, and it's amazing how many females just end up hating their life. Markness- so it isn't you, it's a society where woman don't feel welcomed to some extent by certain males.

I had 3 incidents as a younger child, one where l asked to be escorted home by the police in one of the incidents. Please protect your children, to any mothers reading this post, including from their step-fathers.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Seriously great points here. @Markness , you maybe running towards a relationship with great speed, but then you realized that you are dating a manipulative conniving hateful person, so then you can't run away fast enough. So the point is don't just settle for any relationship just because. There has to be a foundation of morals, standards, etc.

I agree totally with the posts talking of manipulative relationships. I have been pursued by deadbeats where l live probably because l own a reasonable place to live in, and rent is out of control, especially if these types have an aversion to working. So to escape this, l went back to a previous relationship. So one choice is just less worse then the other choice l guess.

I endured being stalked by a guy in another state for four years. Men have no idea what battlegrounds woman walk thru. I have suffered sexual harassment in 90% of the jobs l have had. So if woman don't want to date, it could be as simple as that, we are traumatized from past experiences. Then throw in abusive so called friends, and it's amazing how many females just end up hating their life. Markness- so it isn't you, it's a society where woman don't feel welcomed to some extent by certain males.

I had 3 incidents as a younger child, one where l asked to be escorted home by the police in one of the incidents. Please protect your children, to any mothers reading this post, including from their step-fathers.

@Aspychata , I have read too much of this and also heard from women and this disturbs me to no end. I come from the basis of love and respect for people and especially women and always thought that I had to earn their affection. I am sad that you had to experience what you describe.

You have read enough of me to know how sad I was, trying to be a decent person with potential, yet never being noticed by women. I understand a lot of the Weltsmerz expressed by @Markness and wish it was in my power to help him. As people have said, he needs to value himself as an interesting person. Most importantly, I also feel that he has to attend to his economic and social potential in supporting a relationship. And, Stop with the needy vibes. I do not think women find neediness attractive. He needs to drive a stake through the heart of those vampire feelings.

 

[Aspychata]

@Aspychata , I have read too much of this and also heard from women and this disturbs me to no end. I come from the basis of love and respect for people and especially women and always thought that I had to earn their affection. I am sad that you had to experience what you describe.

You have read enough of me to know how sad I was, trying to be a decent person with potential, yet never being noticed by women. I understand a lot of the Weltsmerz expressed by @Markness and wish it was in my power to help him. As people have said, he needs to value himself as an interesting person. Most importantly, I also feel that he has to attend to his economic and social potential in supporting a relationship. And, Stop with the needy vibes. I do not think women find neediness attractive. He needs to drive a stake through the heart of those vampire feelings.

These are very valid points. I was trying to drive home the fact that many woman aren't approachable because of previous bad encounters. So many men tend to think it's themselves, when in reality, it's a younger female getting harassed by her landlord, boss, maintenence man, bus driver, etc. And many more young woman chose to work instead of getting involved. So the odds of dating and finding someone can be rather difficult.

But your points are all valid, and l am glad you opened up about yourself so that Markness can understand and deal with any shyness he may encounter in himself and the woman he is looking for.

The needy vibes could be a result of his mother which keeps him in a codependent trap from what he has written here. But l still see great improvement on his outlook in general, and he may show up with a girlfriend and perhaps he will let us know.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I was trying to drive home the fact that many woman aren't approachable because of previous bad encounters.

Understood. And I truly hate those guys who created that. I found that when I started dating that it was a barrier when I thought of myself as having value that some pretty nice women were not open to understanding.