Direct involvement in research

[Rahere]

Tell me then, in bullet points, how you're different, then, please. What is it that causes the difference? No circular arguments, "my ASD", what is it exactly that high-functioning/performance/delivery autistic do NTs don't? I'll give you Meltdowns as aheadline starter for 10, but what's driving yours, please? It'll have to be a list, mine are when I don't back off the intensity. Or when someone triggers a reflex alarm.

 

[Crossbreed]

Tell me then, in bullet points, how you're different, then, please.

(This answer is not counting the co-morbids found in ASD2s & 3s.)
If you mean "as compared to NTs," autistic and other asynchronous neurologies are delayed in (and may never arrive at) the crystallized form that NTs experience in their mid-to-late 20s, at least in portions of our brains. (That stands out to NTs.)

On the plus side, those parts of our brains retain their child-like, fluid thinking traits that grant us continued agility in our learning, imagination & sensory processing. (That is probably where our melt-downs come from, too.) This can be seen as completely hereditary. We do get some crystallized thinking with age & experience, but it never completely displaces our fluid thinking as it does in the NTs.

(All of the above is true for ASD2s & 3s, too, but they have secondary brain damage on top of it.)

 

[Rahere]

Autism is not an ID it's a developmental disorder (so is ID) but normal intelligence (and yes even high intelligence) is possible in autism. You are 2e!! (just like me!)

Just an edit: being autistic and smart can be confusing the distance between my highest iq score measurement thing (I have no idea the technical terms) and the lowest is 50 points and my highest score and second highest score is 43 points. Many autistic people develop unevenly but they does not mean we are stupid.

I'm going to be robust on this one. We don't provide for the proper education of our brightest, we traumatise and ostracise them, and that's their fault? It's right up alongside "he had enough air to say he was suffocating" as abusive BS. Their needs aren't those of a neurotypical, I fully agree with Greta Thunberg, I had no childhood because I was reading what I needed to make sense of the world when nobody was teaching me at an appropriate level. Aged 8y6m I was at age 14. At 16, I was using postgrad maths techniques my examiners had never heard of. I was ostracised as a result, and nobody did a thing to help. That's not disordered development, it's abuse. We're different, sure, but don't use that as an excuse for not making proper provision for our human rights. 1% of humanity or more, perhaps 100 000 000 human beings. We've barely moved on from de Winter and Mandalay, or King George V's youngest, Prince John, kept out of sight becaise he was autistic. I went undiagnosed for my entire working life, so I refute the entire thesis.

What I'm incapable of judging is to what extent my parents may have been told things I never was told. The way I was discouraged from learning to drive. How my socialisation was actively discouraged, even after university, in a way never done with my siblings. I was fortunate to marry, a decade later, although cancer took her soon after. But like so many others on here, it's surreal to consider a relationship with someone not on the spectrum. The communications issues are too great. It's widely thought you're likely to relate best with someone within 10-15 IQ points either side of yours. There wasn't anyone above me, and precious few over 150 below! I didn't have a bearing on that, but after discovering nothing but mental turnips around, I became discouraged. That's not disorder, that's a disordered society. There's hundreds of thousands in the same boat, from what I see of the ladies on here.

 

[Rahere]

(This answer is not counting the co-morbids found in ASD2s & 3s.)
If you mean "as compared to NTs," autistic and otherynchronous neurologies are delayed in (and may never arrive at) the crystallized form that NTs experience in their mid-to-late 20s, at least in portions of our brains. (That stands out to NTs.)

On the plus side, those parts of our brains retain their child-like, fluid thinking traits that grant us continued agility in our learning, imagination & sensory processing. (That is probably where our melt-downs come from, too.) This can be seen as completely hereditary. We do get some crystallized thinking with age & experience, but it never completely displaces our fluid thinking as it does in the NTs.

(All of the above is true for ASD2s & 3s, too, but they have secondary brain damage on top of it.)

You might as well ask why we don't develop striped arses like other baboons! I'm not joking when I surmise we may be a new species. We've roughly double the brain volume of the first homo sapiens, and I at least seem to be using mine properly. Homo scipiens? Why should our neurology crystallise? Just because NTs' do doesn't mean to say it's the nec plus ultra of evolution! Stop allowing them to define us in their own terms. We are humans and should be treated as such. There's a decent cut of Neanderthal in the gene pool, and I suspect more than a little Floriensis too in Indonesia. I passed as NT until the Nobel Prize Committee pointed us out and Harley Street invited themselves in. Human includes provision for the tail end of the bell curve, let's have some for the best, too, please, or human development will stall, atrophy and die.

Where are the papers on this, please? I'm in need of some light entertainment.

 

[Crossbreed]

We've roughly double the brain volume of the first homo sapiens,

Not every autistic is intellectually gifted. Quoting Lorna Wing, our only common denominator is a diminished social instinct. (One can be asynchronous in other ways.)

Stop allowing them to define us in their own terms.

Every condition is defined by a baseline. That is fair in medicine & science, but it doesn't mean that we are broken. Like left-handers (who are also functional), we are the exception rather than the rule.

I passed as NT until the Nobel Prize Committee pointed us out and Harley Street invited themselves in.

You have alluded to your Nobel Prize more than once. This forum has a blog feature. You ought to tell that story so we will know what you are talking about.

Where are the papers on this, please? I'm in need of some light entertainment.

I am an ASD1/2e father of ASD1-3 (at least one 2e). My hypothesis was pieced together from different sources and is independently supported by, at least, one doctor and her camp.

Here is the tip of the iceberg,
Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Autism Subtypes...

(PS: Could you please make use of paragraphs?)

 

[PastelPetals]

I'm going to be robust on this one. We don't provide for the proper education of our brightest, we traumatise and ostracise them, and that's their fault? It's right up alongside "he had enough air to say he was suffocating" as abusive BS. Their needs aren't those of a neurotypical, I fully agree with Greta Thunberg, I had no childhood because I was reading what I needed to make sense of the world when nobody was teaching me at an appropriate level. Aged 8y6m I was at age 14. At 16, I was using postgrad maths techniques my examiners had never heard of. I was ostracised as a result, and nobody did a thing to help. That's not disordered development, it's abuse. We're different, sure, but don't use that as an excuse for not making proper provision for our human rights. 1% of humanity or more, perhaps 100 000 000 human beings. We've barely moved on from de Winter and Mandalay, or King George V's youngest, Prince John, kept out of sight becaise he was autistic. I went undiagnosed for my entire working life, so I refute the entire thesis.

What I'm inapable of judging is to what extent my parents may have been told things I never was told. The way I was discouraged from learning to drive. How my socialisation was actively discouraged, even after university, in a way never done with my siblings. I was fortunate to marry, a decade later, although cancer took her soon after. But like so many others on here, it's surreal to consider a relationship with someone not on the spectrum. The communications issues are too great. It's widely though you're likely to relate best with someone within 10-15 IQ points either side of yours. There wasn't anyone above me, and precious few over 150 below! I didn't have a bearing on that, but after discovering nothing but mental turnips around, I became discouraged. That's not disorder, that's a disordered society. There's hundreds of thousands in the same boat, from what I see of the ladies on here.

Oh well of course the systems failed us I mean at the very least I know they failed me. My gifts were not fostered and my weakness were ignored and I was stuffed into a box I failed to fit in. To be honest I am not really sure what answer you're after. You are who you are and that's that. I am autistic and while I am smart I struggle to thrive in the world as it is due to how I think and navigate the world.

 

[PastelPetals]

I am an ASD1/2e father of ASD1-3 (at least one 2e). My hypothesis was pieced together from different sources and is independently supported by, at least, one doctor and her camp.

Here is the tip of the iceberg,
Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Autism Subtypes...

I may never understand this but I have read the blogspot post before as you link it often. As shown in my signature I have ASD2 but I have no brain damage of any kind. I am considered smart though maybe unbalanced in my intelligence and I have some developmental delays though you can't be on the NT track entirely and be autistic. The reason I have ASD2 and not ASD1 is due to having higher needs not due to brain damage or intellectual disability but due to developmental delays and being "pretty autistic" whatever that means. You seem to think that there is some "pure and true" autism out there and that people who don't are damaged or defective in some way. I can tell you from my life that I am in no way brain damaged (yes I know for a fact I have been tested a lot including two MRIs in my life) but just autistic in a more noticeable way.

Also I believe I have mentioned before but the blog post you link has a total of one source and it's the cases for one state in one country and it's from 2008. Having such little info for such a big claim is in no way scientifically sound. Science needs to be observable and repeatable. That is why even in surveys like this one if you were actually looking for data overall (lets even say in the USA) you would look in every US state every year for many years to see the change or lack thereof over time. Then you could put the brain damage hypothesis to the test by taking a large sample and doing MRIs and other brain studies. This hypothesis may be correct but we don't have the data and most likely there are many reasons for how ASD 2&3 come about. Just like how there are over 100 genes associated with autism there may be over 100 reasons.

 

[Streetwise]

Minor co-morbids are quirks.
Major co-morbids are defects.
Autism, apart from co-morbids, is not a defect, just different.

Disagree just because humans Neurotypicals have destroyed the original world ,doesn't mean any being is defective just different.

 

[Thinx]

From what I can tell, the spectrum of autism as currently identified covers a range, as does the spectrum of neurotypicality. But our difference is stigmatised, while neurotypicality is not regarded as a spectrum, or as anything except Being Normal. Like heterosexuality isn't seen as a sexuality, where being gay is.

And all the upsides of how we can be as neurodiverse are not noted or attributed to u or neurodiversity except sometimes in savants. We are not understood, valued or nurtured. We are a wasted asset, currently. And much maligned.

What about Isaac Newton, Henry Cavendish, many giants of the past, uneven, poor communicators, in some ways, but hey, brilliant and needed. They had to be rich, privileged and determined in order to be heard, even then. And that's not to speak of the women who went unrecognised utterly, but may yet be spotted in history's dim tunnels.

 

[Crossbreed]

As shown in my signature I have ASD2 but I have no brain damage of any kind. I am considered smart though maybe unbalanced in my intelligence and I have some developmental delays though you can't be on the NT track entirely and be autistic.

One can be brain damaged and have a high IQ, at the same time.

One's severity level grades their co-morbid load, not their autism. Autism exists without co-morbids and co-morbids exist without autism.
Before 1979, measurable co-morbids among the autistic were extremely rare.

Also I believe I have mentioned before but the blog post you link has a total of one source and it's the cases for one state in one country and it's from 2008. Having such little info for such a big claim is in no way scientifically sound.

(It was 2014. It showed the change in 1979. 2019s numbers are even higher.)
Other sources report the same numbers around the same time, globally. That is the only graphic that I can find and it represents a microcosm.

 

[Crossbreed]

What about Isaac Newton, Henry Cavendish, many giants of the past, uneven, poor communicators, in some ways, but hey, brilliant and needed.

They are good examples of unrecognized ASDs (with no significant co-morbids) in the past.

Autistics with significant co-morbids were well-documented in the past. They were as rare as natural-born triplet births. Now that we know about ASD1s which is heritable, we know that there has not been a significant change in autism numbers, just a significant change in how many have severe co-morbids [2s & 3s]. And that is the real problem. Not to cure autism, but to prevent severe co-morbids back to pre-1979 levels.

 

[PastelPetals]

One can be brain damaged and have a high IQ, at the same time.

One's severity level grades their co-morbid load, not their autism. Autism exists without co-morbids and co-morbids exist without autism.
Before 1979, measurable co-morbids among the autistic were extremely rare.

(It was 2014. It showed the change in 1979. 2019s numbers are even higher.)
Other sources report the same numbers around the same time, globally. That is the only graphic that I can find and it represents a microcosm.

What do you define brain damage is?? Because the definition I found was "The destruction or deterioration of brain cells." My brain has always been like this. I showed symptoms of autism from birth and again as I said I have been looked at and I have no brain damage. So I think you are thinking of a different word.

Also the 2019 report is from the same place in the same state and this organization seems to be run by people who are biased towards your position particularly that there is an autism epidemic. While I do respect their effort to get services expanded (I myself am currently getting ready for a tration program that I could not go to without state services and support from the state) I can see that they are biased towards a point of view. They claim the word epidemic to be neutral but of course like most words it comes with a connotation. More people need glasses to see than ever before but I never hear about an eyeglass epidemic because people who wear glasses even ones who need very thick lenses are accepted and not seen as bad.

I understand you are a parent to an autistic child (or two I am so sorry I am very tired) and I know how hard I was on my parents and I know at least my father would make it all go away if he could. Even today he said if he could make me not autistic he would. I know it's been hard for them however it gives then no excuse to see me as defective. Your view of ASD1 vs other autism diagnosis seems more rooted in a sense of superiority than fact. I know I am outnumbered here are most here have ASD1 and might even agree with you but I stand by ASD2 is ASD2 and ASD3 is ASD3 now ASD3 along with ASD2 might come with an ID and you are right that is a comorbidity but still not brain damage and not everyone with ASD2 or even ASD3 has an ID (like me!)

 

[Crossbreed]

What do you define brain damage is??

Neurological dysfunction, but not necessarily cognitive dysfunction. Severity levels of 2 or 3 refer to how much support is needed, without regard to the specific conditions.

Step back for a second. The number of severe co-morbid conditions has sky-rocketed starting in 1979. It points to an environmental change, not business as usual. Otherwise, 2s & 3s would still occur more closely to 1:10K.

Also the 2019 report is from the same place in the same state and this organization seems to be run by people who are biased towards your position particularly that there is an autism epidemic.

I answered that in my previous post to you [about microcosm].

 

[PastelPetals]

Neurological dysfunction, but not necessarily cognitive dysfunction. Severity levels of 2 or 3 refer to how much support is needed, without regard to the specific conditions.

Step back for a second. The number of severe co-morbid conditions has sky-rocketed in 1979. It points to an environmental change, not business as usual. Otherwise, 2s & 3s would still occur more closely to 1:10K.

I answered that in my previous post to you [about microcosm].

Yes and as I was saying you can't make a claim if the only data you have is from one organization in one state that clearly wants to make a case for the autism epidemic. Yes there may be a reason that more people are autistic. Here is my theory. My Maternal aunt is autistic and both her siblings (my mom and my uncle) have autistic traits. Both of my aunts children are autistic one of my uncles children is autistic and of course one of my mother's children is autistic (that being me). My eyes are blue and yet everyone's eyes started brown but the first blue eyed lady had kids and they carried the gene. You are autistic and your kids are autistic that's not the world going crazy that's genetics.

also please stop referring to it as brain damage due to it not being brain damage. Neurological dysfunction works just fine if that's how you want to say it but it's just confusing if you say it as brain damage as that is an existing thing and not the things you are talking about.

 

[Rahere]

I may never understand this but I have read the blogspot post before as you link it often. As shown in my signature I have ASD2 but I have no brain damage of any kind. I am considered smart though maybe unbalanced in my intelligence and I have some developmental delays though you can't be on the NT track entirely and be autistic. The reason I have ASD2 and not ASD1 is due to having higher needs not due to brain damage or intellectual disability but due to developmental delays and being "pretty autistic" whatever that means. You seem to think that there is some "pure and true" autism out there and that people who don't are damaged or defective in some way. I can tell you from my life that I am in no way brain damaged (yes I know for a fact I have been tested a lot including two MRIs in my life) but just autistic in a more noticeable way.

Also I believe I have mentioned before but the blog post you link has a total of one source and it's the cases for one state in one country and it's from 2008. Having such little info for such a big claim is in no way scientifically sound. Science needs to be observable and repeatable. That is why even in surveys like this one if you were actually looking for data overall (lets even say in the USA) you would look in every US state every year for many years to see the change or lack thereof over time. Then you could put the brain damage hypothesis to the test by taking a large sample and doing MRIs and other brain studies. This hypothesis may be correct but we don't have the data and most likely there are many reasons for how ASD 2&3 come about. Just like how there are over 100 genes associated with autism there may be over 100 reasons.

This is why I'm calling them out. A few mouthy gits with undeserved professional reputations are affecting the lives of millions with pseudoscience, they need to be discredited in public, they haven't done the work. I was disgnosed with mild high-performance Aspergers, not Autism, and the two are NOT the same. They're not even on the same spectrum, the Aspergers word is a misdiagnosis, we've a different syndrome presenting similar traits but very different mechanism under the hood. You might as well call the rest of humanity ASD1 on the basis presented! It's like calling rabbits donkeys because they're both quadrupeds and eat grass. We share neurodivergence, sure, and I do have difficulty communicating, but that's because Norman Normal on the other end of the line can't understand, he runs out of brain space. I can melt down, because my neurophysiology hasn't yet caught up with the new ability to use my brain properly: yes, I've embedded monitoring my neuroception for loading in my habits long since, but that's not foolproof in a way 20 generations of it might be, built in at the same level as sneezing and the IAS relief mechanism is. But even the term neurodivergence accepts Norman as the epitome of excellence, and he isn't. We should be calling ourselves neuropreferable!

 

[PastelPetals]

This is why I'm calling them out. A few mouthy gits with undeserved professional reputations are affecting the lives of millions with pseudoscience, they need to be discredited in public, they haven't done the work. I was disgnosed with mild high-performance Aspergers, not Autism, and the two are NOT the same. They're not even on the same spectrum, the Aspergers word is a misdiagnosis, we've a different syndrome presenting similar traits but very different mechanism under the hood. You might as well call the rest of humanity ASD1 on the basis presented! It's like calling rabbits donkeys because they're both quadrupeds and eat grass. We share neurodivergence, sure, and I do have difficulty communicating, but that's because Norman Normal on the other end of the line can't understand, he runs out of brain space. I can melt down, because my neurophysiology hasn't yet caught up with the new ability to use my brain properly: yes, I've embedded monitoring my neuroception for loading in my habits long since, but that's not foolproof in a way 20 generations of it might be, built in at the same level as sneezing and the IAS relief mechanism is. But even the term neurodivergence accepts Norman as the epitome of excellence, and he isn't. We should be calling ourselves neuropreferable!

Well I agree with you on the pseudoscience front but not really the rest. I see this too often on this site. Jaded and often traumatized people with aspergers deciding that they are somehow different or better than the rest of us. Norman Normal does not have an inadequate brain and neither does Allison Autistic or Albert Aspergers we just all have different brains but I would argue that we share more in common even though maybe on the surface I am stimming more and I can't hold a job. I think complexly and differently than a "normal" person but I think I think like you. This is of course not meant to call you out but you seem to think in many layers and have put a lot of thought into this topic maybe to the point of perseveration (I do that), your thinking also seems quite rigid and that of course begs the question why am I trying to change your mind but of course I am rigid too, we both seem to like big words and communicate in greater detail than the average person, you also seem to think logically but to a point you see your emotions as logic and I also tend to do that. We on not not different spectrums you are just less overwhelmed. My issues come from how sensitive I am to everything and also the fact I hate socializing and being around people. You're just better at faking it.

 

[Crossbreed]

Yes and as I was saying you can't make a claim if the only data you have is from one organization in one state that clearly wants to make a case for the autism epidemic.

The reports from other sites indicate that this is a global phenomenon. California just has a convenient graph.

also please stop referring to it as brain damage due to it not being brain damage. Neurological dysfunction works just fine if that's how you want to say it but it's just confusing if you say it as brain damage as that is an existing thing and not the things you are talking about.

"Acquired" neurological dysfunction is brain damage. Mass neurological dysfunction is novel to Millennial autistics. It was almost unheard of among pre-Millennial autistics.

Having autistic family members does not adequately account for that jump.

 

[Rahere]

Neurological dysfunction, but not necessarily cognitive dysfunction. Severity levels of 2 or 3 refer to how much support is needed, without regard to the specific conditions.

Step back for a second. The number of severe co-morbid conditions has sky-rocketed in 1979. It points to an environmental change, not business as usual. Otherwise, 2s & 3s would still occur more closely to 1:10K.

I answered that in my previous post to you [about microcosm].

Simply kowtowing to the establishment isn't what this thread is about, though. It's about telling them our reality. Firstly we need some kind of structure, then we need to add figures to it. What we don't need is another Temple Gradin speaking for all because nobody else had the courage to come forwards. I'm not talking about low-functioning Aspergers, or the other subclassifications. It might not even apply to all high-functioning folk. Maybe we've more subgroups than at first appeared. These are things to be considered. What is high functionality? What taxonomy is there to "gifted"? From what I see on a corresponding forum, giftedness doesn't require intellect. Part of the idea stems from St Paul, gifts of God, and my seer skill most certainly is that. When I counted my fingers and toes after my metamorphosis, I didn't know what to look for, it manifested as it developed until some very tough cookies started sending newbies around to look at the wonder. A zoo animal. OK, I called said newbie in so he could get to know me and realise I was human, just not NT. I didn't have a diagnosis then, but I sure as **** wasn't normal, and that removed any doubt in the matter. Not that blowing the windows of embassies in before sorting the sheep from the goats is, for that matter, and I'd already qualified on that count. I just didn't do it so visibly.
That's actually one of the reasons for calling this ******** out. I'd worked under the eyes of the security services since age 12. They know me backwards, inside out, and are quite happy with my mentality. They still are, one of my mentors is a former Royal Military Police copper. Not that much former, in reality, just a civvy specialist. So if some pseud comes along talking BS, it's time to send them packing.

 

[PastelPetals]

The reports from other sites indicate that this is a global phenomenon. California just has a convenient graph.

"Acquired" neurological dysfunction is brain damage. Mass neurological dysfunction is novel to Millennial autistics. It was almost unheard of among pre-Millennial autistics.

Having autistic family members does not adequately account for that jump.

May I have the sources? I am ok without a graph.
Also that is an assumption that it's acquired. Last time I checked they don't do neuropsych evals on babies. It's well known by my family I can out of the womb with sensory sensitivities, anxiety symptoms, and trouble regulating myself, along with never developing good eye contact or interest in climbing or putting things in my mouth. Being born this way is not known as acquiring it's known as being. Many babies are not like me because I was very loud. Many low needs babies who become high needs are not seen as seeming off as babies due to "being easy" as they won't cry much or need to be held, when they get a bit older those same thing become an concern.

 

[Crossbreed]

Simply kowtowing to the establishment isn't what this thread is about, though. It's about telling them our reality.

I am not "kowtowing to the establishment." I am speaking as an autistic father of autistic children. I appear to be from a long line of autistics, but the mass neurological dysfunction is new to my children's/nephew's/niece's generation. Can't an autistic tell that reality?

If there was no massive jump in occurrence, I would just accept that that was the hand we were dealt, but statistically, that isn't the case.

And to be clear, that has no impact on the value of my ASD2 & 3 children, nor my love for them, just on their quality of life. If that unprecedented neurological dysfunction is acquired, it must be prevented if possible. It is actually misautistic* not to do so.

*Autistic-hating or, at best, neglect.