Just before I moved to a coilcoating line worked at a plant painting plastic automotve parts they had just started replacing the spray painters with robots. the the robots could paint at the same cost as a minimum wage for a unskilled worker.
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Electric cars...
- Thread starter Sherlock77
- Start date
I just took on a job as a cleaner to fill in time until I found a job I wanted. It was great for a while, I got to visit every plant throughout the whole factory and I got to talk to so many people.
The machines I stopped and watched were spot welding inner and outer door panels together and the handler seemed to love showing me how good it was. He got blokes loading the conveyor rack to put a set of panels in from a different model to what they were running and got me to watch what it did.
It recognised that it's routine had changed, used it's welding "claw" to feel around the two panels, then welded them in the correct places. Then when the next set of panels was back to their regular run it did the same thing again, felt it's way all around the edges of the panels until it recognised what it was working on.
[Edit] This was back in 1988, they didn't have the video technology that we do these days. The machine had to identify what it was holding by "touch".
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I remember many of the issues in the old days programming was not generalized.
It might depend on what sort of vehicle/battery.
There have been a number of bus fires caused by batteries.
Lots of the "pedestrian" scooters exploding also.
I could research, but for another time.
BTW,
I think context is once again the villain here.
I was referring to stationary vehicles.
I haven't heard about petrol cars spontaneously catching on fire just sitting there.
I guess you are talking about fires started as the result of accidents.
In that case, batteries are safer.
I drive a diesel car, btw.
Lower chance of catching fire.
Also, I was using hyperbole when I previously said I didn't want to be incinerated, and that I'd rather die of old age.
It DOES depend upon the battery chemistry, the vehicle design, thermal management system, and whether or not the battery pack was damaged. Scooters, computers, etc. are NOT the same chemistry. Apples and oranges. Even within the narrow perspective of lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries, there are about 20 different chemistries out on the market. In other words, we need to be very specific, and not generalize, because it does matter. Now, having said that, and your post was quite timely, because 3 days ago,YouTuber Ben Sullins, who digs into this sort of research, put out a good video that breaks all of this down in a well-understood way. He does address the stationary vehicle fires that you mention, and yes, ICE vehicles are significantly more likely to "spontaneously" catch fire.It might depend on what sort of vehicle/battery.
There have been a number of bus fires caused by batteries.
Lots of the "pedestrian" scooters exploding also.
I could research, but for another time.
BTW,
I think context is once again the villain here.
I was referring to stationary vehicles.
I haven't heard about petrol cars spontaneously catching on fire just sitting there.
I guess you are talking about fires started as the result of accidents.
In that case, batteries are safer.
I drive a diesel car, btw.
Lower chance of catching fire.
Also, I was using hyperbole when I previously said I didn't want to be incinerated, and that I'd rather die of old age.
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Scooters are an entirely different beast to most other things too. Those tiny little wheels over all the dips and bumps means those batteries get far rougher treatment than any other device. There's also the nature of the people that ride them who tend to be younger and more easily distracted so are more likely to leave them on charge overnight without keeping an eye on them.
Wheel size is a factor, but ride is mostly about suspension. A solid frame bicycle gives a much rougher ride, only tolerable because the rider can lift their butt off the seat, but the batteries are seldom sprung.
Springs also can go inside the seats of a bicycle. Keeps the jarring off the spinal cord.
Granted this seat has had it but I can't find a replacement anytime soon. Not an electric vehicle. 1966 Raleigh, 3 speed and rod brakes. No suspension whatsoever but at 12-16mph it's still a smooth ride because of the upright riding posture and 28"x1.5" tires. These things ride like early Mercedes-Benz cars-- smooth and stately, but not very fast. All it had to do when designed in 1913 was be slightly faster than a horse. It certainly has the upper hand as far as being less needy and less messy.
Suspending batteries on rubber grommets would also help with shock absorption on vehicles like scooters or ebikes.
Granted this seat has had it but I can't find a replacement anytime soon. Not an electric vehicle. 1966 Raleigh, 3 speed and rod brakes. No suspension whatsoever but at 12-16mph it's still a smooth ride because of the upright riding posture and 28"x1.5" tires. These things ride like early Mercedes-Benz cars-- smooth and stately, but not very fast. All it had to do when designed in 1913 was be slightly faster than a horse. It certainly has the upper hand as far as being less needy and less messy.
Suspending batteries on rubber grommets would also help with shock absorption on vehicles like scooters or ebikes.
Sorry for double post but -
1934 Mochet Velocar. It's pedal powered by both riders but people used to put motors on them as well. I think the ideal urban electric car is not a Tesla, but more along the lines of a Mochet with lithium propulsion.
- wood body is biodegradable, steel tube chassis can be recycled,
- light weight is less to push, so longer ranges and less battery required,
- smaller motors can push it so it takes far less copper,
- cute picture book styling is less threatening than Chevrolets latest,
- used in WWII by French civilians as they didn't need gas to escape Nazis and were super quiet so you could turn the headlights out and leave at night,
- modern upgrades would help a lot with comfort,
- nobody thinks you're "compensating",
- can be parked on a porch instead of requiring a big parking space.
I'd drive the heck out of one of these things especially with electric power added. But they're very rare in the States and I would probably have to acquire some old bike parts and some plywood if any Mochet-style velomobiling is in my future.
1934 Mochet Velocar. It's pedal powered by both riders but people used to put motors on them as well. I think the ideal urban electric car is not a Tesla, but more along the lines of a Mochet with lithium propulsion.
- wood body is biodegradable, steel tube chassis can be recycled,
- light weight is less to push, so longer ranges and less battery required,
- smaller motors can push it so it takes far less copper,
- cute picture book styling is less threatening than Chevrolets latest,
- used in WWII by French civilians as they didn't need gas to escape Nazis and were super quiet so you could turn the headlights out and leave at night,
- modern upgrades would help a lot with comfort,
- nobody thinks you're "compensating",
- can be parked on a porch instead of requiring a big parking space.
I'd drive the heck out of one of these things especially with electric power added. But they're very rare in the States and I would probably have to acquire some old bike parts and some plywood if any Mochet-style velomobiling is in my future.
Those saddles are not sold now because they rob power, and, sadly, neither are Raleigh's other sprung saddle, which does not. With this one, the rider bounces up and down with each pedal stroke, wasting leg motion. Racing bike builders are very fussy about not even having an extra half inch of chainstay to compress directly, or letting the bottom bracket flex. The right kind of sprung seat has tight-wound coils that stay solid for pedaling, but get stretched by a plunger on the bigger bumps. Sprung seat posts are invented constantly, and fail in production every few years.
I have a friend with a Mochet pattern quad, but he does not use it much. Tandems also get little use, as twosomes are rare, and nobody wants to haul an empty seat. I spent decades developing more streamlined, comfortable velomobiles for the reasons you list, plus more. Adding an electric booster is a huge advantage even if it does not affect top speed. It can be rigged with a simple inertia control, so the rig, with you in it, responds as if it only weighs a few pounds. Nothing happens without pedaling, and you still have to get a good workout for a fast cruise, but it accelerates and climbs without blocking traffic, and downhill, it works as a regenerative brake, preventing the extreme speeds otherwise likely to be indulged in.
I have a seat similar to this one on my bike. (electric) Like me it's built for comfort rather than speed.
When I had my ten-speed bike I decided to replace the seat with the base of a spring-loaded seat, but modify it for a more "racing seat" style like the seat that originally came with my Miyata ten-speed.
It worked....I had the looks of a sleek racing seat, but the comfort thanks to small, but effective springs underneath.
Levitat0r
Well-Known Member
The main problem I see is charging time. You cannot load "gallons" of electric power into a car in a matter of five minutes. The only reasonable solution I've seen for that is a system for swapping out the battery, but it could take a long time before it's standardized and widespread, like gas stations are. You would need to have some sort of standard battery pack. Regular, Premium, and Ultra, anyone?
Levitat0r
Well-Known Member
That's neat. Just at a glance, it gave me the idea to make the battery packs modular, so that one size fits all, at differing stack quantities, depending on storage needs.
Battery charging capabilities are improving significantly in a relatively short period of time, say the past 10 years. There may be a day, very soon, where it can be within 10-15 minutes for most drivers. Having driven EVs since 2018, the only time I actually visit a charging station is if I were doing some sort of long road trip, very rarely in my case. Charging stations are for those who do not have home charging or are on some sort of long trip. The strategy with EV charging is to charge WHILE doing other things. So, it might be the 20-30 minutes spent shopping or sitting down in a restaurant. The other thing to consider is that most of these EV battery charging events are with the battery at say, 20-30% state of charge and up to 80-90% state of charge. It is extremely rare, and frankly, not recommended to charge up to 100% state of charge. The end result is that for the typical "road trip" you are only using about 50-60% of battery capacity, which typically gets you about 2-3 hours of driving, and then recharging. Having said that, 99.9% of charging is done while the vehicle is parked, usually while the owner is sleeping. 99% of daily use is within 25 miles of home. Personally, I drive to work and drive back home, a 35 mile round trip. I use about 10% of the battery (80% down to 70%). Plug into a 15A garage outlet, and the battery is back up to 80% for the morning drive back to work, AND the battery is at the proper temperature, AND the cabin, seats, and steering wheel are at the proper temperature, no scraping ice and snow from your windshield either. Frankly, it's far more convenient than stopping at a petrol station.
The mindset and strategy with EV charging is obviously not that of a petrol-fueled vehicle. "How long does it take to charge?" is not a question one can answer. It depends upon the charging source, it depends upon the state of charge at the beginning and end of the session, it depends upon the charging rate capacity of the vehicle. "How far can you go on a charge?" is not a question one can answer. The reality is, very much like a petrol-fueled vehicle, the driver is not running the tank empty before filling up the tank. EVs are also subject to all the same mileage variables that petrol-fueled vehicles have. Do you have a heavy foot on the accelerator pedal or a light one? Are you driving stop and go in town? Are you driving 80-85mph or 65-75mph on the highway? Are you driving in the Winter or in the Summer? Any driver can get much higher than the rated mileage, or much worse. The same for petrol-fueled vehicles.
That story I linked above is a couple of years old now. The electric trucks are working out pretty good for all the inner city short run work between shipping and rail terminals and warehouses, and to supermarkets and other large retailers, etc. In densely built up areas like that they only haul one trailer and they can do several runs before going back to base for a fresh battery.
Levitat0r
Well-Known Member
Use case matters a lot, and like you said, for certain commutes, I think you can change out for an EV and not suffer any drawbacks. However, if we're talking cross-country traveling, that is where you find issues.
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