Electric cars...

[Judge]

Agree. And we have only volunteer fire departments which I'm sure increases insurance premiums much higher than places with professional fire departments.

When I underwrote HO3,4 & 6 policies if we even entertained such risks, the first consideration was placing them into mandatory standard markets only. Instantly much higher premiums compared with their preferred market counterparts.

And only if and when many other considerations checked out.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

The fire stations are voluntary old barns burning previously burning as the got modernized The barn my brothers and I wired up burned down years after if was sold heat lamp pig broke fell on straw bedding Either way I chat with these people and they have no interest in electric cars, They have extensive experience fixing internal combustion engines
I change a lot of clutches when I owed my turbo charged four cylinder Mercury capri 40 years ago, That was fun.
Ripping up and down fields jumping the car puncturing the battery would be very pricy. The life style is different. you cannot fix do not buy.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

While I think it is cool to have battery powered cars, I cringe at the mandates and forced production. In my mind it takes incredible amounts of materials, some sourced from occasionally questionable places. The resources needed for producing electric vehicles is massive. Retooling factories to produce EVs is another expense and causes more pollution to replace or redesign equipment in factories.
More production and chemicals only serves to increase industrial pollution. Added to that where are all these used and dead batteries being disposed of?
The environmental cost of producing is huge! Why should he destroy and phase out vehicles that have already been made, only to pollute more and create more EVs?
Overall it is a concept with good intentions to move away from fossil fuels but what will the total cost be to the environment?
I’m my opinion laws should be in place to prevent excessive and unnecessarily oversized combustion vehicles. It is criminal, in my opinion, that a single man that stays on paved roads needs a giant diesel truck to drive to work and back, or the grocery. Smaller Fuel efficient vehicles should be more abundant like in Europe, and required unless the driver needs utility (like a big truck for work).

I am a state certified journeyman electrician, and also state certified/ licensed installer of EV charging stations. The charging cords on EV stations get damaged frequently and need replacement often. Some users abuse the equipment and charging station property.

I feel the biggest problem with combustion engine vehicles is oversized inefficient vehicles being used as a fashion / vanity statement and not practical applications. We do not need a million “street queen” full size pickup trucks on the road occupied by a single white collar passenger.

It’s still really early here and I’m not fully awake, so I might be leaving out pertinent info.

TLDR:
I disagree with forced EV production. I feel laws should be enacted to limit unnecessary vehicle use of inefficient combustion engines and oversized transportation. Only Fuel efficient vehicles should be used for passenger transportation.

As of 2024, in the US, there is no mandate. Period. It's a conservative talking point, but there is no mandate at this time. There has been an EPA push for legacy auto to meet emissions standards, and those mileage and emissions standards are increasing, but because we are towards the end of development of internal combustion engines in this regard, electrification, hybrids or battery electric drivetrains are being developed in order to meet those standards across their passenger vehicle and light-duty truck line. HD work vehicles are not part of this conversation just yet. Furthermore, this conversation becomes a mute point when we start talking about air pollution within urban centers. EVs do not have tailpipe emissions. If you are concerned about public health in terms of reduced lifespans due to a slow, insidious development of lung disease, then cleaning up the air would be a priority. If you are in rural areas, this is not part of your conversation. In crowded cities, with traffic congestion, it's incredibly important.

"Cradle to grave" pollution of an EV passenger vehicle vs. a petrol-powered passenger will vary from study to study, depending upon their data collection. So, I'm not going to get into that discussion. I've seen it range from "just a little bit less" to more than 50% less, even if all the electricity is being generated by a dirty coal plant (not likely). The amount of decommissioned coal plants shut down in the past 3 years or so is incredible, and is precipitously dropping in favor of renewable energy sources. 2023 showed over an 80% increase in global solar production and solar energy, is by far, the cheapest source of electricity generation globally. Utilities are going solar and battery. It makes much more financial sense today. Cost curves and scales of economy.

EV batteries are fully recyclable and should not be placed in landfills. For example, Tesla, which currently controls over 60% of the global EV market, has contracts with recyclers around the world to extract and purify all these raw materials and sell them back to battery manufacturers. As we are currently ramping production lines, there is a high demand for mining, but at some point it will plateau and there should be enough raw materials in circulation to significantly taper off the mining.
Redwood Materials | Circular Supply Chain for Lithium-ion Batteries

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I have been watching steel mills convert to recycling noticed Tesla like to use aluminum for frames looks like 6000 series aluminum extruded aluminum does not have memory hard to fix after accident. I worked with aluminum extrusions years ago. Of course I read the aluminum association hand book when it came out yearly. Either way it's more than just batteries. Dents are hard to fix on 6063 aluminum skin.

 

[velociraptor]

not highly educated

This I agree with.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

My bothers joke is half the population has a two digit IQ which is technically true. This how the debate will be decided not facts gut feeling. either way as long as cheap internal combustion engines exist in used cars That what I buy. Last car cost me $5000. Quality so high that it does not break down just change oil twice a year. My house has 100 amp service so this not an issue.

 

[Outdated]

But he ran through a puddle and the tesla locked up.

This is a serious issue in Australia with all cars, not just electric vehicles.

The electrical system for driving an electric car is pretty much infallible.
The engine management systems for combustion engines are also very robust and almost never fail.

The "nanny state" electronics that they lay on the rest of the vehicle are what keeps letting everyone down, especially the antitheft systems. I've had 2 different cars where the car decided that it no longer recognised my ignition key, decided it had been stolen, and shut down.

That's not so much of a problem if you live in a city, just call a tow truck and get it fixed. When it happened to me I was living in a remote region, I was able to get locals to tow me back home but the nearest mechanic was 170 Km away. So I was without a car while I hunted around for someone that owned a car trailer and I had to pay them to take my car in to the city, was without a car for around a month every time.

At around the same time as this happened to me there were a few people that died because of similar problems. One was a young geological surveyor sent out to a remote area in a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser. Same as with me his ignition key was no longer recognised and the vehicle suddenly became immoveable. He had a 20 litre container of drinking water with him but that's not going to last long in the bush. It took 2 weeks for anyone to find him and by then it was too late.

There was also a young family in a remote region on their way to another town to visit relatives in a brand new Mercedes. They got a flat tyre, no biggy. Except when they went to change tyres the spare was also flat. They changed it anyway but the Mercedes refused to drive on a flat tyre. It was over a week before anyone found them and forensics pieced together what happened. The baby died first, then the parents a couple of days later. The 10 year old boy lived for a couple of days longer and after the rest of his family died he tried to walk along the road probably looking for help, they found his body a couple of kilometres away.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I have been watching steel mills convert to recycling noticed Tesla like to use aluminum for frames looks like 6000 series aluminum extruded aluminum does not have memory hard to fix after accident. I worked with aluminum extrusions years ago. Of course I read the aluminum association hand book when it came out yearly. Either way it's more than just batteries. Dents are hard to fix on 6063 aluminum skin.

Tesla has a very specific alloy that they use in their presses, as it must meet very exacting specifications for a quick pour and cooling without cracks or warping. I believe sources have said it is a AA386 alloy, or something similar. As far as the skin goes, yes, aluminum requires special techniques, but many manufactures are using aluminum now, so from an auto body repair perspective, many shops have the equipment and training to do those repairs. Tesla uses a combination of magnesium-aluminum, lithium-aluminum, and steel in their bodies depending upon the model of vehicle. All I know is that after 3 winters worth of salty roads, there's not a bit of rust, with exception of a few fasteners (I saw 2), most of which are not corroded. I just pulled the wheels off this afternoon to do some routine brake cleaning and lubrication. The whole underside, chassis, and suspension components are looking like new.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I would check the alloy but I gave my copy of the AA manual to my son. Do not need it any more temper is also important. Aluminum has no memory when it gets dented or bent does not spring back, saw this first had on my employer at the time switched to plastic, Saturn cars used plastic I should know worked for a supplier at one time.
painted these parts. Steel pop out sand paint a bit. I would not want to work in a body shop with aluminum. For the customer will be costly. Skins are still coiled aluminum stamped probably 6063 T6. possibly prepainted in the future. No need for special alloy Either way I have no issues with electric just go in with your eyes open. Just remembered sheet metal is 3000 series been a while. maybe 3105 or 3003 if tesla is cheap.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

AA386 is a forging alloy, not stamping I have never worked with forging or stamping with aluminum. Extrusions and painting coil yes Surprised Eldon is not using prepainted over post painted much cheaper and higher quality. I guess no body told him This is why my appliance position ended years ago as they made this transition. I thought Eldo was an innovator.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

AA386 is a forging alloy, not stamping I have never worked with forging or stamping with aluminum. Extrusions and painting coil yes Surprised Eldon is not using prepainted over post painted much cheaper and higher quality. I guess no body told him This is why my appliance position ended years ago as they made this transition. I thought Eldo was an innovator.

To be honest Ronald, it's not my area of expertise. I struggled to find ANY information regarding their aluminum alloy. All I know is that whatever aluminum alloy they are using in their gigapresses, it is a proprietary, patented alloy created specifically for these giant IDRA presses. It's not something "off-the-shelf", in other words. Fast forward to the 2:00 mark in this video where it discusses this:

This one discusses the IDRA presses.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I like Eldon Giga press is great I think other will copy I know he got the idea from model cars I started my career in coil coating aluminum ended my career in coil coating grow their market move onto appliances not quite break into automotive as spot welding was an issue I have no idea how Eldon connects the body panels to the vehicle spot welding aluminum is tricky one third of a automotive assembly plant is paint line lots of robots coil coating is very high quality very versatile cheap and the same stamping equipment can be used to stamp the coil he not aware of this hIs engineers too are focused on what they know, saw this over and over again. Yes the weird coating effects are hard that's why I was in the lab. Imagine if the engineers had imagination. Architects were just starting to see stuff that could be done when I retired.

 

[brandybild]

No one in this discussion is talking about what we will do with the used batteries for all these EVs. That is a huge environmental problem. Also, if we no longer burn gas to power our cars, we will have to burn it to produce electricity to recharge our cars. Where is the savings? I'm sure the EVs are nice, but Tesla is having frequent problems, some are just annoying, some stop the car dead.. The total electric car is really great....until it's not. So, I take a wait and see position. I won't say I would never buy one - but I won't now. And what is the RV industry going to do if there are no tow vehicles, no gas/diesel engines for the self-contained RV? That recreation industry is huge, including the campgrounds, parts sales, etc. And, for people who own boats but do not keep them in the water (ie: most small boat owners) how will they tow them to their favorite fishing spots? There are, of course, some instances where EVs make sense - as a short commute car, or just an "around town" car for short errands. Maybe we should support that when it makes good sense. But many of us drive quite a few miles each year to do the things we do, and in many cases, an EV won't cut it. There is no one single right answer. Can't we all just get along? (Aspies and NTs, too??)

 

[Neonatal RRT]

No one in this discussion is talking about what we will do with the used batteries for all these EVs. That is a huge environmental problem. Also, if we no longer burn gas to power our cars, we will have to burn it to produce electricity to recharge our cars. Where is the savings? I'm sure the EVs are nice, but Tesla is having frequent problems, some are just annoying, some stop the car dead.. The total electric car is really great....until it's not. So, I take a wait and see position. I won't say I would never buy one - but I won't now. And what is the RV industry going to do if there are no tow vehicles, no gas/diesel engines for the self-contained RV? That recreation industry is huge, including the campgrounds, parts sales, etc. And, for people who own boats but do not keep them in the water (ie: most small boat owners) how will they tow them to their favorite fishing spots? There are, of course, some instances where EVs make sense - as a short commute car, or just an "around town" car for short errands. Maybe we should support that when it makes good sense. But many of us drive quite a few miles each year to do the things we do, and in many cases, an EV won't cut it. There is no one single right answer. Can't we all just get along? (Aspies and NTs, too??)

Actually, we did talk about these things.

"EV batteries are fully recyclable and should not be placed in landfills. For example, Tesla, which currently controls over 60% of the global EV market, has contracts with recyclers around the world to extract and purify all these raw materials and sell them back to battery manufacturers. As we are currently ramping production lines, there is a high demand for mining, but at some point it will plateau and there should be enough raw materials in circulation to significantly taper off the mining."
Redwood Materials | Circular Supply Chain for Lithium-ion Batteries

"The amount of decommissioned coal plants shut down in the past 3 years or so is incredible, and is precipitously dropping in favor of renewable energy sources. 2023 showed over an 80% increase in global solar production and solar energy, is by far, the cheapest source of electricity generation globally. Utilities are going solar and battery. It makes much more financial sense today. Cost curves and scales of economy."
"Furthermore, this conversation becomes a mute point when we start talking about air pollution within urban centers. EVs do not have tailpipe emissions. If you are concerned about public health in terms of reduced lifespans due to a slow, insidious development of lung disease, then cleaning up the air would be a priority. If you are in rural areas, this is not part of your conversation. In crowded cities, with traffic congestion, it's incredibly important."

Whether you are dealing with internal combustion engines or electric motors, a small percentage will have mechanical problems. That's why there are service centers and tow trucks and have been since the invention of the automobile. Part of the reason why auto dealerships are reluctant to even have EVs on their lot is that they barely scrape a profit off of the sale of the vehicle, itself, but rather revenue occurs when it returns to the service center for repairs, and simply put, EVs rarely need repairs or routine servicing. The current dealership revenue stream will be disrupted because there is almost no routine maintenance to bring customers back to the shop.

As far as HD work vehicles and RVs are concerned, currently, in the US, there isn't any legislation to phase out the internal combustion engine in this transportation segment. In the US, the current focus is upon passenger cars and light-duty trucks. Rivian is making battery-electric delivery trucks for Amazon, and those vehicles have been on the road for a few years successfully. Having said that, Volvo, Tesla, and others are beginning to produce compelling battery-electric and diesel-electric (think rail locomotives) vehicles that can and are replacing petrol-fueled semi trucks in real world applications and fleets. One example:

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Great discussion, not about getting along that's how us Aspies like doing thing.

 

[velociraptor]

No one in this discussion is talking about what we will do with the used batteries for all these EVs.

There are already companies popping up that are recycling the battery elements and even renewing the batteries and making them available for resale more affordably. It costs about $16,000 to have a dealership replace your batteries but you can do it yourself for about $4,000 now.

I still don't think the battery tech is where it needs to be for me to buy an electric car. If we compare it to light bulbs I think we have moved from incandescent to compact fluourescent, but we have not arrived at LED yet so far as efficiency and environmental concerns.

I am intrigued by Toyota's solid state batteries that have yet to hit the market.

 

[Outdated]

I am intrigued by Toyota's solid state batteries that have yet to hit the market.

Toyota has fingers in many different pies:

Toyota’s “Water Engine”: Understanding the Hype, Reality, and the Numbers

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

The more innovation the better,

 

[velociraptor]

Toyota has fingers in many different pies:

I think they approached electrification and alternative power sources much more rationally than any other car company out there.

 

[Forest Cat]

There's a reminder in todays newspaper here, our politicians have a goal, that it will not be possible to buy a new car with a diesel or gasoline engine in Norway after January 1, 2025. I'm panicking a little....

So only electric cars after that date, all new cars at dealers should be electric. I have to put my head between my knees for a moment... breathe, just breathe... We don't have the power grid or charging stations needed for that, electricity is very expensive now and the cost of electric car repair is amazingly high here.