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Electric cars...

Would you buy an electric car?

  • No thank you

  • Sign me up!

  • If I must

  • I don't drive, thus I really don't care anyway

  • I am interested, but until there is more reliable technology for long highway trips


Results are only viewable after voting.
There's a reminder in todays newspaper here, our politicians have a goal, that it will not be possible to buy a new car with a diesel or gasoline engine in Norway after January 1, 2025. I'm panicking a little.... 🤯

So only electric cars after that date, all new cars at dealers should be electric. I have to put my head between my knees for a moment... breathe, just breathe... 😵 We don't have the power grid or charging stations needed for that and the cost of electric car repair is amazingly high here. It's going to suck so much.
Time to move to Denmark? 🤔
 
We don't have the power grid or charging stations needed for that, electricity is very expensive now and the cost of electric car repair is amazingly high here.
That's pretty much the same issue many of us have here. Electric cars are great for people living in cities and I recommend people living in cities head in that direction, but not everyone lives in a city.
 
That's pretty much the same issue many of us have here. Electric cars are great for people living in cities and I recommend people living in cities head in that direction, but not everyone lives in a city.

I think our politicians are way ahead of themselves. They desperatly want to turn everything electric right now, but the simple truth is that we don't have the infrastructure, the technology isn't good enough yet and I'm pretty sure their plan will crash and burn. Our power grid has to be updated and expanded and not just because of electric cars, it's overdue.
 
I think our politicians are way ahead of themselves. They desperatly want to turn everything electric right now, but the simple truth is that we don't have the infrastructure, the technology isn't good enough yet and I'm pretty sure their plan will crash and burn. Our power grid has to be updated and expanded and not just because of electric cars, it's overdue.
Ours are sort of the opposite, all the ones that grew up in Sydney anyway. They announced a couple of years back that they were ending coal and gas exports by 2040, except for Japan which is a special case. Now they've just extended the lease for 3 coal mines in New South Wales for another 40 years.
 
Ours are sort of the opposite, all the ones that grew up in Sydney anyway. They announced a couple of years back that they were ending coal and gas exports by 2040, except for Japan which is a special case. Now they've just extended the lease for 3 coal mines in New South Wales for another 40 years.

Our politicians just opened up a couple of new oil fields. So they are normal politicians, they rarely make sense. 🙂 Forcing us to drive electric and selling lots of oil.
 
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The grid may be more ready than we think, keep in mind, people can still purchase used petrol vehicles, and many will. The transition will still take many years. In the mean time, any extra grid capacity and infrastructure will be built. I believe most of these mandates are specifically for cars and light-duty trucks, not HD work vehicles, RVs, and such. If people are using these EVs for local (within 25 mile radius of home) then you can charge off of a simple 15A garage outlet (which actually charges at 12A). This covers about 99% of drivers, statistically. I've been doing this since 2018. If the car is at home, it's plugged in and "trickle charging", and works quite well. Most home vacuum cleaners use 12A. If you install a 30-40A circuit for quicker home charging, then it's the same as an electric oven or clothes dryer. For the vast majority of people, 99% of charging will be at home. Apartment dwellers will use the high-speed charging network, 20-40 minutes a week, or so, depending upon the vehicle, mileage, and the specific charger they are using. It's not like every EV owner is attached to the high-speed network, probably less than 1% at any given moment. The grid will be fine.

Yes, repairs can be expensive, but do consider that they generally don't need a lot of service and repairs. Fleet owners have experienced significant decreases in the costs of their fleets transitioning to electric. Batteries and motors are typically under warranty for at least the first 8 years or 100,000 miles, so in the rare event there is an issue, no cost to the owner. With the new chemistries and motors, newer data looking at degradation, wear, etc. expect them to last well past the 10 year mark. When in doubt, when considering a purchase of a used EV, and they are even less than some ICE vehicles now, you can go into the dashboard and pull up the battery data. If it is at 95% plus, then you're probably good.
 
The grid may be more ready than we think, keep in mind, people can still purchase used petrol vehicles, and many will. The transition will still take many years. In the mean time, any extra grid capacity and infrastructure will be built.

I think we are talking about two different grids in two very different countries. We are going to have to spend an incredible amount of money here to make the required changes. This is on top of everything else, water supply and sewage system also must be upgraded. Basic things that will cost an enormous amount of money. You see, this should have been done years ago. But it was put off again and again. The people in charge handed the problem over to the next group of people in charge. And they handed it over to the next group, no one actually did anything.

This is not as simple as it may sound, it's not just about buying a new car. This transition to electric cars must be financed, it will be extremely expensive and it will be financed mostly with tax money. Right now we already have problems here, everything is more expensive than it was just 5 years ago. Just the price of food is up 20-30%. Bankruptices are up over 20% so far this year and it will get worse. We already pay 60-80% tax total and we can't just keep taking on more expenses all the time. But the taxes will go up now, again. I'm paying until I bleed these days, it's not fun.

So we are being squeezed every day, it's hard times. This is much more complex than just buying a new car, this will affect everyone, not just car buyers. Simply put, the authorities are running us into the ground. What we the people need or want seem to not matter much. There has been no voting or anything like that about this, no one asked us what we want or need. We're just told what to do these days. And now they are telling us we have to finance this project and that they will decide what cars we can buy.
 
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I think we are talking about two different grids in two very different countries. We are going to have to spend an incredible amount of money here to make the required changes. This is on top of everything else, water supply and sewage system also must be upgraded. Basic things that will cost an enormous amount of money. You see, this should have been done years ago. But it was put off again and again. The people in charge handed the problem over to the next group of people in charge. And they handed it over to the next group, no one actually did anything.

This is not as simple as it may sound, it's not just about buying a new car. This transition to electric cars must be financed, it will be extremely expensive and it will be financed mostly with tax money. Right now we already have problems here, everything is more expensive than it was just 5 years ago. Just the price of food is up 20-30%. Bankruptices are up over 20% so far this year and it will get worse. We already pay 60-80% tax total and we can't just keep taking on more expenses all the time. But the taxes will go up now, again. I'm paying until I bleed these days, it's not fun.

So we are being squeezed every day, it's hard times. This is much more complex than just buying a new car, this will affect everyone, not just car buyers. Simply put, the authorities are running us into the ground. What we the people need or want seem to not matter much. There has been no voting or anything like that about this, no one asked us what we want or need. We're just told what to do these days. And now they are telling us we have to finance this project and that they will decide what cars we can buy.
The US and Norway really aren't that far off in some of this. Our infrastructure in most small to medium-sized communities are 50-100 years old in terms of plumbing and electricity (with minor local improvements). Grid outages in rural communities are common, and most homes in these areas have generator backup, because it can be out for several days. Bridges and roads are crumbling, and even if repairs are done, it's with the cheapest materials from the cheapest company bid. They don't last long and within 10 years they're pot hole ridden and "bumpity, bumpity" down the road beating up your vehicle. We don't have smooth roads in the northern half of the country. Temperature changes create cracks in the materials, water seeps in, and they erode quickly. It's never ending construction zones in cities as soon as the snow melts. Prices of everyday things, groceries, petrol, homes, vehicles (EVs dropped in price), and pretty much everything have increased about the same rate in the US as Norway (I did a little research). Small-medium-sized businesses were crushed during and post the pandemic. Our Federal reserve bank increased rates significantly, hurting the economy across the board. Our personal tax rates in the US are on a sliding scale, depending upon income, but can be as high as 37%. Personally, I am at 24%, then another 7% or so for Social Security/Medicare, then my retirement contribution is an additional 28% (employee adjustable), so I am basically taking home about 30% of my Gross. In our situation, my wife and I have got it balanced so that we end up with about the same balance in the checking account after groceries, etc. each 2 weeks pay period. We run a "tight ship" and are pretty disciplined. So, if you are in that 60-80% total taxes in Norway, you and I are about the same, plus-minus.

The differences perhaps, what has happened the past 10 years or so, is the electric utility providers have decommissioned many of the old coal plants, initially with natural gas and wind, and then the past 2-3 years solar and battery. I am not sure how much extra capacity was built into the system. The EV charging network has expanded quite quickly in the past 10 years, and is now filling in to those more rural, "off-the-beaten path" areas slowly. There are places in northern Michigan (I live in the southern Michigan) where high-speed EV chargers are so far apart, they are essentially useless, and if I wish to travel there, I need to rent a petrol-fueled vehicle. We don't have any federal mandates regarding the people to purchase EVs, but rather it's putting the "thumb screws" to the legacy auto makers to meet emissions and mileage standards, which they really are unable to do unless they transition to electrified drivetrains. California and a few other states have mandates beginning in 2030-2035 for cars and light-duty trucks. Furthermore, the average cost of a new EV is currently, in 2024, at or even slightly below the average cost of a new ICE vehicle. Many of the used EVs are significantly lower in price than a used ICE vehicle. Tesla's mission is to continuously drop the prices of their vehicles as their production costs drop, which owners like myself, if we get in an auto wreck, our insurance will only give us the money of what it is currently worth, which might not cover the cost of the original auto loan when the car was more expensive years ago. It's an interesting situation when people like me paid $10,000+ more then, than what a new one is now.
 
Bridges and roads are crumbling, and even if repairs are done, it's with the cheapest materials from the cheapest company bid. They don't last long and within 10 years they're pot hole ridden and "bumpity, bumpity" down the road beating up your vehicle. We don't have smooth roads in the northern half of the country. Temperature changes create cracks in the materials, water seeps in, and they erode quickly. It's never ending construction zones in cities as soon as the snow melts
This is very true for Australia's eastern seaboard, except for the mention of snow. But the eastern seaboard also doesn't have road trains, too many idiots with driver's licenses but no ability to drive so too dangerous. The rest of the country has roads and bridges built for road trains which on average weigh about 110 ton but can be hauling over 200 ton each.

Grid outages in rural communities are common, and most homes in these areas have generator backup, because it can be out for several days.
Our power supplies are good in the densely populated areas, but take a look at the population density map below. In the dark green area that covers the majority of the country there is no grid. Some of the larger towns will have their own mini grid and generate their own power but in many cases houses either supply their own power or learn to live without it. We don't have hundreds of little towns scattered across the country 30 to 50 Km apart, they are on average 500 Km apart.

9mw8ttqqu0b41.jpg
 
This is a long and interesting thread, so I think it should get another reminder of the elephant in the room. Cars are like Rube Goldberg machines as a way to get around. Almost all their work goes into hauling themselves around, working as hard as a horse with a little circus monkey. Even loaded to capacity, they seldom get to 30% payload. We are paying a fortune to haul our images and fears around, after careful cultivation by the advertisers. Poor people are stuck with the used cars originally sold for status seeking, with big running expenses and repair bills. If we use modern engineering and materials, and keep the goal firmly in mind instead of copying the past, 50% payload could be normal.
 
I don't drive. Which makes me wonder why all the talk about driverless cars seems to have just abruptly ended.

I guess even if you had a driverless car, you'd still need to know to drive and have a license. In case the car required "backup power" or something like that.
 
I don't drive. Which makes me wonder why all the talk about driverless cars seems to have just abruptly ended.

I guess even if you had a driverless car, you'd still need to know to drive and have a license. In case the car required "backup power" or something like that.
Go on to YouTube and type in "Tesla robotaxi" and filter it out for just this past week. You will have all sorts of videos on the topic. In a few weeks, Tesla will have a major "robotaxi" event. October 10 if memory serves me right.

In December '23-January '24 Tesla scrapped their old software for a completely new machine learning model. Someone figured out the only thing holding the software write back was human beings! Go figure.

The latest full-self driving (FSD) software 12.5 is receiving accolades from users. 20, 30, 40 minute drives without interventions in all sorts of congested city environments, construction zones, etc. It learned from human drivers, so it drives very much like a human. Blindfolded, you can't tell it's a robot on wheels. It also drives out in rural areas, dirt roads, no lane markers, pitch black environments, etc. It will park itself and you can summon it to your location from a parking spot. It's pretty darn close to full artificial generalize intelligence (AGI) as one can get in 2024, and it's learning exponentially fast. Every new version is markedly better (about once a month or so).

Cruze and Waymo are using different technologies, such as pre-mapped routes, lidar, radar, and other sensors. Tesla is using vision via cameras and just lets the car go wherever the passenger wants it to, a whole different thing.

Driverless cars will eventually, some day, eliminate the proverbial "idiot behind the wheel", as will vehicle-to-vehicle communication (not developed yet). Frankly, it will all but eliminate this concept of owning a vehicle, altogether. Like in many cities today, you just click onto your phone app and "call a car". No car payments/loans, no insurance payments, no maintenance, no fueling or charging, no paying for or trying to find parking, no "creepy" Uber drivers, etc. It just drops you off and picks you up at the door. Something happens to the car, call for another car, and move on with your day. The only people taking any risk are the fleet owners. I think this will be the norm within 10 years. Things are accelerating in that direction.
 
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We're not adventuring to driverless cars yet but we are using driverless trucks. They're only allowed on set routes at the moment but not because of limitations in their software, it's more to do with the general public being scared of them. As more and more time goes by with no accidents that should change.

Strangely, we've had a couple of bad incidents with driverless trains, but none with the trucks.

They use a wide range of technologies including radar, lidar, and regular vision to actively track anything else that's moving within quite a distance from themselves, and they can detect obstacles or obstructions and change routes to avoid issues. Different twist on the car technology though, these things weigh hundreds of tons and they can't stop too quickly so their detection range is a lot further than what you would need in a suburban car situation. And instead of avoiding pedestrians they try to avoid cattle and kangaroos.

Autonomous-Road-Trains-scaled-1-2048x1366.jpg
 
I don't drive. Which makes me wonder why all the talk about driverless cars seems to have just abruptly ended.

I guess even if you had a driverless car, you'd still need to know to drive and have a license. In case the car required "backup power" or something like that.

If you're going to San Francisco....you may not encounter that girl with the flower in her hair. However you will discover driverless taxis if you want one. Just "mind the gap" so they don't run over your feet.

Massive expansion of driverless robotaxis approved for San Francisco despite public safety concerns
 
If you're going to San Francisco....you may not encounter that girl with the flower in her hair. However you will discover driverless taxis if you want one. Just "mind the gap" so they don't run over your feet.

Massive expansion of driverless robotaxis approved for San Francisco despite public safety concerns
What Waymo and Cruze are experiencing is the limitations in their approach. Pre-mapping, Lidar, Radar, and a team of software engineers responsible for "labeling" and writing code. Whenever these vehicles encounter something they are unfamiliar with, they don't know what to do with their situation. In some cases, the car just stops, failing to make decisions due to a lack of software information. In some cases, it presents safety concerns, as was noted above.

Tesla made similar mistakes and the cars would get confused in specific cases, such as when one lane splits off into two and it "stuttered" with the steering trying to decide which lane to choose, or perhaps when a turn lane appeared without properly painted lane marking, it would seek the center of this "wider lane" and then when it became a single lane again, it quickly whipped back to center itself in the lane. How the road was painted, or not painted, made significant difference in the performance. Then "phantom braking" was annoying and became a safety issue for anyone following the car close behind. If there was a vehicle coming down an onramp into your lane, it would "suprise" the car and it would pump the brakes and scare the daylights out of you. If the sun was low on the horizon and there were tree shadows on the road, alternating bright sun and shadow was a recipe for phantom braking as well. Hated that.

Thank God, they dumped that entire approach to their software write. Now, Tesla is using these massive computer learning centers. Every vehicle is connected and records all the video data from millions of vehicles, millions of miles of driving each day, all those "mundane" experiences, all those rare "edge cases", emergency maneuvers, construction areas, pedestrian experiences, etc. Then the information is sorted out separating "good" interventions from "bad" interventions, collected, and then another over-the-air software release is kicked out to the cars. Myself and others, have experienced a huge leap forward with each update and have been very pleased. It's so smooth right now. Love it.
 
Thank God, they dumped that entire approach to their software write. Now, Tesla is using these massive computer learning centers.
I'm surprised that didn't start earlier. We've been using neural networks for decades now. Especially in the car manufacturing industry, the robots they used in assembly lines weren't programmed, they were trained and could make judgements. Whenever they struggled with a situation a human handler would stop them and switch them in to "learn" mode and physically drag the robotic arm around to make it do what it was supposed to do. They never made the same mistakes twice.
 
I'm surprised that didn't start earlier. We've been using neural networks for decades now. Especially in the car manufacturing industry, the robots they used in assembly lines weren't programmed, they were trained and could make judgements. Whenever they struggled with a situation a human handler would stop them and switch them in to "learn" mode and physically drag the robotic arm around to make it do what it was supposed to do. They never made the same mistakes twice.
Agree them watched them set up painting robots years ago I the trainer had a quirk that would stay until it was retrained.
 
Agree them watched them set up painting robots years ago I the trainer had a quirk that would stay until it was retrained.
I spent 3 months working at the Holden plant in Elizabeth, South Australia. Long gone now, no longer exists. It was fascinating to see some of the ways things were done.
 

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