I would trade it all

[tree]

I had intercourse on the first date and was given oral sex on the second date, both of which were her ideas. What was I supposed to think?

That she was interested in having sex. aka *was horny*

 

[BewilderedPerson]

That she was interested in having sex. aka *was horny*

She told me hadn’t had intercourse in more than a year, which makes me feel bad about myself and everything that happened in hindsight.

 

[Seladon]

Again, let me preface my comment by saying--tough love is needed here, my comments are not personal attacks, if you wanted perspective and real help here it is (from an actual female). Feel free to scroll or ignore if that works better for you, though, I'm not your Mom or your therapist.

Considering how she called me a really nice and well intentioned guy, I doubt that means I was unsafe.

I saw sex as a gamble for me, too, especially since I’m not going to ask for sex on a first date and am in no rush to get to sex. If it happens, it happens, and it happened, and it meant something to me.

Did you outright communicate to her how meaningful sexual contact is to you? Because if you didn't, there's no way she could have known that, nor would she have assumed it as a default. People can't read minds, nor can they intuit the exact needs of another person and meet them all (and if it seems like someone is, they're probably manipulating, loveb0mbing or stalking you--you need to keep yourself safe here, too).

It was a 'gamble' for you to engage, sure, but not in the same ways as for her. Unless you forgo all protection and bugchase, engage with bigger stronger men who enjoy ch0king or blood or something, or have the bad luck to find yourself a babytrapping bunny-boiler, sex is not going to be any sort of immediate significant threat to your life or safety or reputation, lbr.

'Nice' is a bit of a meaningless, placatory epithet ftr, not implying goodness or trustworthiness or anything more than superficial pleasantness. And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, people say. Ime men who call themselves or whom others call 'nice' aren't always, so much. If that quality has to be pointed out, reinforced or advertised, then usually it's so the person in question doesn't snap or go apesh!t on somebody. Not saying this applies to you, but it does seem to be the case more often than not.

She insisted I did nothing wrong and I was myself. But I’m sick of doing nothing wrong, maybe even doing some things right, and yet my successes with women being brief and few and far between.

Is there empathy for my plight and my struggles? Loneliness can kill.

Seems you have a crippling terror of being alone, or of being untouched or unloved. Might it be worth stepping back from relationships for a bit to investigate this in therapy, or unpack it in private conversation with a trusted person? Because sex with randoms or short serial relationships is only going to make these feelings stronger and more painful for you, and these soothing behaviours might start to become injurious to yourself or others if the underlying wound isn't addressed. What I'm hearing right now is a lot of melancholy and self-pity without true introspection as to where the pain stems from, which is not helping you or anyone else.

It's also worth thinking about how this old saying applies: the deepest fear of a man is that a woman will mock or abandon him; the deepest fear of a woman is that a man will rape or kill her (or her children). It's why for someone to say lack of access to constant sex & love from someone is a 'plight' is a bit risible and red-flag.

 

[thejuice]

A man who pumps and dumps on a first date is a user. A woman who does that is finding themselves.

I hear the pain you're in, people are not happy in the dating scene, apart from the lucky few.

You have to assume they're going to be seeing more than one person in the initial stages. It's the modern libertine hellscape of dating. The unlimited novelty and self centred hedonism of risky encounters with strangers with no satisfactory way to adequately vet them. No responsibility, or any kind of meaning at all. Modern dating is like masturbation with a third party.

You could protect yourself by not giving away sex on the first date. A period of mandatory abstention would sort the sex addicts from the serious inquirers.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

A man who pumps and dumps on a first date is a user. A woman who does that is finding themselves.

You have to assume they're going to be seeing more than once person in the initial stages, it's the modern hellscape of dating. You could protect yourself by not giving away sex on the first date, which would sort the wheat from the chaff.

Is this part of that double standard that I mentioned in the other thread?

I’ve had to guess I was used for sex, but let me tell you, I’ve never asked for sex on the first date. I guess I just went along with it.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

Again, let me preface my comment by saying--tough love is needed here, my comments are not personal attacks, if you wanted perspective and real help here it is (from an actual female). Feel free to scroll or ignore if that works better for you, though, I'm not your Mom or your therapist.



Did you outright communicate to her how meaningful sexual contact is to you? Because if you didn't, there's no way she could have known that, nor would she have assumed it as a default. People can't read minds, nor can they intuit the exact needs of another person and meet them all (and if it seems like someone is, they're probably manipulating, loveb0mbing or stalking you--you need to keep yourself safe here, too).

It was a 'gamble' for you to engage, sure, but not in the same ways as for her. Unless you forgo all protection and bugchase, engage with bigger stronger men who enjoy ch0king or blood or something, or have the bad luck to find yourself a babytrapping bunny-boiler, sex is not going to be any sort of immediate significant threat to your life or safety or reputation, lbr.

'Nice' is a bit of a meaningless, placatory epithet ftr, not implying goodness or trustworthiness or anything more than superficial pleasantness. And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, people say. Ime men who call themselves or whom others call 'nice' aren't always, so much. If that quality has to be pointed out, reinforced or advertised, then usually it's so the person in question doesn't snap or go apesh!t on somebody. Not saying this applies to you, but it does seem to be the case more often than not.



Seems you have a crippling terror of being alone, or of being untouched or unloved. Might it be worth stepping back from relationships for a bit to investigate this in therapy, or unpack it in private conversation with a trusted person? Because sex with randoms or short serial relationships is only going to make these feelings stronger and more painful for you, and these soothing behaviours might start to become injurious to yourself or others if the underlying wound isn't addressed. What I'm hearing right now is a lot of melancholy and self-pity without true introspection as to where the pain stems from, which is not helping you or anyone else.

It's also worth thinking about how this old saying applies: the deepest fear of a man is that a woman will mock or abandon him; the deepest fear of a woman is that a man will rape or kill her (or her children). It's why for someone to say lack of access to constant sex & love from someone is a 'plight' is a bit risible and red-flag.

I guess I should have let her know when we had sex how much it meant to me, but she did find out it was only my second time and the first time I ever had sex without paying for it.

Again, she was the one who asked for it, not me. I just went along with it.

Is it possible a person could be genuinely nice, genuinely good and sincere in their intentions? I’d like to think so, and I’d also like to think I was up front, honest and transparent with her. I never felt the need to tell her I was a nice guy, or sweet (another thing she called me multiple times) or well-intentioned. I guess she came to that conclusion on her own. People can make of me what they will as far as my character and who I am.

I’ve been in therapy for multiple years, and it can help, but you’re right, I do have that fear of being alone, despite being shunned by people, especially romantically by women, for much of my life.

On one hand, I think I’ve made progress recently - getting to a second date with one woman and a third date with another. If I just wanted to date around, kiss and have sex, then life’s been great recently. I want a life partner.

It’d be easier if I knew when I was going to die. If someone showed me a crystal ball that guaranteed I’d love for another 40-50 years, great. I’d have less to worry about. Tomorrow is not guaranteed to anyone and this is the only life I have.

I would get down when I would look at others , maybe holding hands in the halls in high school, or seeing their pictures together on social media, wondering when that was going to be me. It eventually was, just later than I’d have liked it.

It does feel like a plight, yes, being a long-suffering man in the dating arena and getting little success and reprieve through the years. I just had my heart broken and dumped after the third date, and that was one of my more successful dating experiences, if that tells you anything.

You can bring up that saying if you wish, but I’ve never been arrested, and if you took a swab of me and compared it to any unsolved murder or sexual assault out there, you’d get zero matches.

You talk of tough love, but it’s easy to give that behind a screen, I suppose.

 

[thejuice]

I’ve had to guess I was used for sex, but let me tell you, I’ve never asked for sex on the first date. I guess I just went along with it.

I know you didnt, that's a stereotype among others.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

Going against stereotypes, especially negative ones, is something I pride myself on.

 

[Tom]

But projecting them on others is ok?

 

[thejuice]

Another stereotype is that men just want sex, so by that logic you should be happy as Larry

 

[thejuice]

Defunct double post

 

[BewilderedPerson]

But projecting them on others is ok?

Which stereotype do you speak of?

 

[Seladon]

If I just wanted to date around, kiss and have sex, then life’s been great recently. I want a life partner.

It’d be easier if I knew when I was going to die. If someone showed me a crystal ball that guaranteed I’d love for another 40-50 years, great. I’d have less to worry about. Tomorrow is not guaranteed to anyone and this is the only life I have.

I would get down when I would look at others , maybe holding hands in the halls in high school, or seeing their pictures together on social media, wondering when that was going to be me. It eventually was, just later than I’d have liked it.

It does feel like a plight, yes, being a long-suffering man in the dating arena and getting little success and reprieve through the years. I just had my heart broken and dumped after the third date, and that was one of my more successful dating experiences, if that tells you anything.

Here's a few things most grown females (except some highly insecurely/anxiously-attached, abused or low self-esteem girls) really dislike and tend to curve:

1. Morbidity
2. Envy
3. Entitlement
4. Self-absorption
5. Codependency

There, you got that for free, could save you years of expensive therapy (I know how much it costs and how tiring it is fwiw, I go too), or better yet make you immune to PUAs who just want to scam you and recruit you into MGTOW Bro Ideology. You're welcome for the save, really, don't mention it.

Because I'm generous and genuinely want to help, regardless of how much passive-aggression and rudeness and snippy snivelly backbiting is thrown my way in thanks. I don't need collusion nor praise, I just think it could benefit you to hear and receive the message. The choice and the power to change is yours, which may be the one thing you need to start trusting in order to get over this.

Either that, or just find and learn to love an extremely clingy jealous dependent passive woman with no other ambition but to mar tyr herself for a man, because she would absolutely love someone with this type of profile as is.

You can bring up that saying if you wish, but I’ve never been arrested, and if you took a swab of me and compared it to any unsolved murder or sexual assault out there, you’d get zero matches.

You talk of tough love, but it’s easy to give that behind a screen, I suppose.

I believe you can be assisted in this matter, and I believe in what I say on the matter, too, but it's up to you what you do with that if anything, I'm not telling what to do or think. And ultimately no-one can save you from wallowing in recrimination, against women or society or a government that doesn't provide you a guaranteed Bangmaid, if that's what you're determined to do.

I don't think you're an abuser and I'm not saying that, either. It's in black-and-white written here that I've never accused you of any wrongdoing, personally, and still haven't. What you are doing in this thread so far though is blaming, shaming and scapegoating women (or at least, a woman or two) for your own mismanaged expectations, and projecting misery onto them, which psychologically can be a very dangerous road to go down. Turn around, Bright Eyes.

Replying "yeah except I haven't SA'd or chopped up a woman myself yet tho and you can't prove anything uwu pwned Miss Marple" in response to a female seriously pointing out that +90% of assault crime perps are male-on-female isn't really it. Nor something to get defensive over. I wasn't being cute or trying for a gotcha by bringing up that old idiom. It's a sad reality we live with.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

Here's a few things most grown females (except some highly insecurely/anxiously-attached, abused or low self-esteem girls) really dislike and tend to curve:

1. Morbidity
2. Envy
3. Entitlement
4. Self-absorption
5. Codependency

There, you got that for free, could save you years of expensive therapy (I know how much it costs and how tiring it is fwiw, I go too), or better yet make you immune to PUAs who just want to scam you and recruit you into MGTOW Bro Ideology. You're welcome for the save, really, don't mention it.

Because I'm generous and genuinely want to help, regardless of how much passive-aggression and rudeness and snippy snivelly backbiting is thrown my way in thanks. I don't need collusion nor praise, I just think it could benefit you to hear and receive the message. The choice and the power to change is yours, which may be the one thing you need to start trusting in order to get over this.

Either that, or just find and learn to love an extremely clingy jealous dependent passive woman with no other ambition but to mar tyr herself for a man, because she would absolutely love someone with this type of profile as is.



I believe you can be assisted in this matter, and I believe in what I say on the matter, too, but it's up to you what you do with that if anything, I'm not telling what to do or think. And ultimately no-one can save you from wallowing in recrimination, against women or society or a government that doesn't provide you a guaranteed Bangmaid, if that's what you're determined to do.

I don't think you're an a buser and I'm not saying that, either. It's in black-and-white written here that I've never accused you of any wrongdoing, personally, and still haven't. What you are doing in this thread so far though is blaming, shaming and scapegoating women (or at least, a woman or two) for your own mismanaged expectations, and projecting misery onto them, which psychologically can be a very dangerous road to go down. Turn around, Bright Eyes.

Replying "yeah except I haven't SA'd or chopped up a woman myself yet tho and you can't prove anything uwu pwned Miss Marple" in response to a female seriously pointing out that +90% of assault crime perps are male-on-female isn't really it. Nor something to get defensive over. I wasn't being cute or trying for a gotcha by bringing up that old idiom. It's a sad reality we live with.

I’m not sure I’m liking the way you’re coming across with your tone in these posts, just saying.

And I could venture I’ve run into entitlement and being self-absorbed from the same women I’ve tried to court. Many people, including some on this forum, have not said fond things of the one who broke my heart and dumped me after three dates in April. Let’s also refrain from acting if as female-on-female jealousy is nonexistent.

In an ideal world, I would like a healthy relationship with a woman who isn’t clingy, but believe it or not, I just went on a first date Sunday with a woman who described herself as clingy and we’re having a second date Wednesday. I’m just trying not to be too clingy or pushy myself. I genuinely always worry about being guilty about that myself.

But given the choice between a woman clinging to me or the heartbreak, I’ve gotten from women in my lifetime, I’ll try someone who’s clingy towards me, if it’s an either or thing.

If a woman uses me for sex, misleads me, as o believe I’ve encountered previously, yes, she should be shamed. Because I know I won’t be leaving a woman anytime soon if we have sex together. I even made it known I’m not that kind of man.

And I believe in myself that I’m capable of being a great partner, though the opportunities are few and far between. Don’t mind me if I’m unappreciative of mixed signals, something I feel like I’ve been on the receiving end of in recent months.

Here is one thing I will blame myself for when it came to the person who dumped me after three dates - she showed me some red flags of hers when we first started talking and I look back at some other red flags she threw out about herself during the three dates as well and I proceeded to carry on despite having knowledge of these red flags. I can only blame myself in that sense.

There are times when I feel like women will go for literally any man except me. They’ll go for nice men, mean men, abusive men, pacifist men, intelligent and not-so-intelligent men, men who are on the spectrum, men who are neurotypical, men who have the gift of gab, men who are socially awkward, men who are criminals and men who are saints (or at least the closest thing to a saint).

It seems like any type of man can be with a woman (at least long term or a good bit) except this one right here.

Being with a woman, for me, is a high like no other, and the only pain I can think of worse than being hurt/dumped/rejected by a woman is the death of a family member.

 

[thejuice]

You have a legitimate complaint against dating in modern society and the associated decline of mental health and family values in my opinion.
Im not surprised you feel misled. I don't think they need to be shamed, it is what it is, casual sex, that's the instant gratification culture we're in. They're operating within the new normal and don't deserve to feel bad for it. I also think you deserve some empathy and understanding too, as a man who simply wants a deeper connection and a future with some semblance of meaning and purpose. Some order out of chaos. We need to move away from the gender wars of both sides shaming each other as it perpetuates unhappyness.
I'd make the intentions clear from the start, to say you're a sensitive man (nothing wrong with that) and you find it hard to separate sex and love. That you're not interested In hook ups. Hopefully that can protect you from new wounds and you're mental health will improve because you won't be in the boom/ bust cycle of multiple short term trysts.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

You have a legitimate complaint against dating in modern society and the associated decline of mental health and family values in my opinion.
Im not surprised you feel misled. I don't think they need to be shamed, it is what it is, casual sex, that's the instant gratification culture we're in. They're operating within the new normal and don't deserve to feel bad for it. I also think you deserve some empathy and understanding too, as a man who simply wants a deeper connection and a future with some semblance of meaning and purpose. Some order out of chaos. We need to move away from the gender wars of both sides shaming each other as it perpetuates unhappyness.
I'd make the intentions clear from the start, to say you're a sensitive man (nothing wrong with that) and you find it hard to separate sex and love. That you're not interested In hook ups. Hopefully that can protect you from new wounds and you're mental health will improve because you won't be in the boom/ bust cycle of multiple short term trysts.

So, I will never ask for sex on a first date, but if a woman asks me for sex on the first date, I will accept, provided I can use the proper protection.

Again, you can blame me because I saw her red flags and still went for it with her. To be honest, I’m not sure how much I like her as a person. So many people, including some on this forum, don’t like her based on what I’ve shared about her.

I don’t see her as a person of great character and principle, yet I’ve still got attraction to her, and if I’m single, I’d have a hard time saying no if she wanted me back. I’ve said recently I’d do anything to have her back. Maybe that’s an effect the sex has had on me.

My mental health has absolutely taken a toll over this one, and some of it has spilled over into my physical health.

I hope this new woman I’m talking to, had a first date with on Sunday, plus a second date scheduled tomorrow night, can help me forget about this other one once and for all:

 

[Seladon]

I’m not sure I’m liking the way you’re coming across with your tone in these posts, just saying.

Fair enough, message received (see? A woman who can take a hint and respect a man's boundaries and feelings! We exist!). Honouring your space to tell your story, this will be my last reply in this thread, once I just clear up the following misconceptions.

tl;dr Sincere good luck, honestly hope you work it all out and find a girl who likes you as much as you like her.

I could venture I’ve run into entitlement and being self-absorbed from the same women I’ve tried to court

Marvellous, so have I. So have many people, male and female. Sorry this has happened to you, really, it does suck and it isn't fair. At the same time though, perspective is helpful, i.e. realising it's not some grand epic Phantom of The Opera level ordeal unique to your life that calls for a novel or a crusade or some kind of grief-circuit tour. We can pop a vike and be cool about this.

Let’s also refrain from acting if as female-on-female jealousy is nonexistent.

I haven't at any point acted as if this is the case. Ctrl+F it. In fact, I don't think it's even come up in the thread before this mention.

And again I've experienced it in my own life both platonically and romantically, so being female I think I have more insight and right to speak on it than even men do. If you want to know more on the subject hmu, however I suspect it's not relevant to your situation nor interesting to you personally.

There are times when I feel like women will go for literally any man except me.

Sounds oxymoronic. Because if there's a lid for every pot as you suggest, then it follows that you too must have one, somewhere. You just may have to prepare for the possibility you don't ever run into her in this lifetime or that you end up as a missed connection (like a lot of people do), and that's just sad luck of the draw, not that you're subhuman or cursed to a miserable fate by the Gods or something. We're focusing on healthy, detached, non-obsessive perspectives here, remember.

Being with a woman, for me, is a high like no other, and the only pain I can think of worse than being hurt/dumped/rejected by a woman is the death of a family member.

Ok, valid...except you just said you took pains not to seem clingy or too intense....or....?

Also (this is something else I've experienced): if a woman says something like this about a man where you or other men could hear it, she'd be accused of being crazy, clingy, desperate, overly keen, stalkerish, etc. And if a woman overheard her say it, she'd wrongly or rightly be called a pick-me (r.e. your first point). There is a covert double-standard in place in MGTOW spaces.



Anyway, deuces, peace, wishing you success on your journey, lighting an altar candle to manifest your girl, etc. Hopefully you enjoy your life going forward with or without a partner. And I mean that with absolutely no /s. You seem well-intentioned (as I've said about twenty times on request...) and like you have the right spirit, just that you're a little confused atp. Others here have good advice that's worth considering or putting into practise. No hate. Gods speed, be well.

 

[thejuice]

Its been too long for me to remember the story but I dont think anyone needs to be blamed you know? Not her for what happened, not you for ignoring the signs. It just is. I think a lot of human behaviour is hormone and auto pilot driven and were not as much 'at the wheel' as we'd like to believe. Things happen, you reflect, change thinking and behaviour. As you know we cant solve our problems with the same thinking and behaviour which created them.

Seems like the sex has a withdrawal effect on you, wish i could say the same. Maybe im just bad at it!

 

[BewilderedPerson]

Its been too long for me to remember the story but I dont think anyone needs to be blamed you know? Not her for what happened, not you for ignoring the signs. It just is. I think a lot of human behaviour is hormone and auto pilot driven and were not as much 'at the wheel' as we'd like to believe. Things happen, you reflect, change thinking and behaviour. As you know we cant solve our problems with the same thinking and behaviour which created them.

Seems like the sex has a withdrawal effect on you, wish i could say the same. Maybe im just bad at it!

It’s a big reason why I’m hung up on her, probably. I actually saw her today from afar out in public and made sure not to be seen by her. It traumatized me and brought back pain and made me miss her.

Then I had a second date with this nice lady tonight and we had a really good time - bowling and dinner, some hand holding and kiss goodnight. She’s willing to have me by her place Friday and do some slow dancing before I have to work Friday night.

With this new person I’m starting to see, there’s no question I like her better as a person, just that with this other one, I think of the passion, the excitement, the fireworks we had, even if it was just a few dates, and I miss that and miss her, even though there are things about her I don’t personally like.

But I know I would not leave this new person I’m starting to see now for this other person I’ve been pining for. I wouldn’t do it. She’s a lot nicer, actually paid for dinner, which she didn’t have to do, but next time is on me.

The other one only paid for stuff when I threw it out as a suggestion, I think she wanted a man to do stuff for her and pay for everything and told me how she wanted an expensive engagement ring before we even met.

 

[Hypnalis]

... with this other one, I think of the passion, the excitement, the fireworks we had ...

You're attracted to chaos, and poorly equipped to deal with it.

The other one only paid for stuff when I threw it out as a suggestion, I think she wanted a man to do stuff for her and pay for everything and told me how she wanted an expensive engagement ring before we even met.

You should not have been surprised when she ghosted you. She told you want she wanted from you.