Is it cheating if you learn to play better watching other gamers?

[grommet]

A lot of what is considered 'cheating' is subjective and dependent on your own set of values.

I am hard on myself. I feel like if I am not 100% honest I fail. I have been trying to be better, making mistakes be okay. I have binary thinking, it hurts me a lot.

 

[thejuice]

I am hard on myself. I feel like if I am not 100% honest I fail. I have been trying to be better, making mistakes be okay. I have binary thinking, it hurts me a lot.

I am too. Personally I treat games like some kind of test. I think we must pride ourselves on our ability to problem solve! It's how I get a sense of self esteem anyway. If someone showed me how to solve a puzzle I wouldn't get the same feeling of accomplishment.

Ever get that feeling of underwhelm when you finally win? It's because the journey is more satisfying than the destination. The trial and error and fine tuning strats. The anticipation of having another crack at it while not knowing if this will be the run. That's what makes games fun for me. Sometimes it can overspill into stubborn tunnel vision.

I think that's the same thought process when it comes to people frowning on 'backseating' in chat on Twitch. I'd only use a guide if I'd exhausted all other options, which it seems you had. What usually happens is I decide to take a break but never go back. Especially if its badly thought out game design or buggy. That is hard to tolerate.

Now taking your example of something like sailing, i wouldn't feel 'uneasy' learning a skill like that from others. It's a very specific thing to single player games. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, there's more than one way to skin a cat!

 

[Judge]

In poker one definitely improves their gameplay by carefully observing the physical responses of other card players with each hand of poker.

Whatever responses they inadvertently make are referred to as "tells".

Simple point: Observing and keeping track of a player's "tell" is not cheating, but simply the employment of strategy in the game beyond the cards themselves.

 

[grommet]

I am too. Personally I treat games like some kind of test. I think we must pride ourselves on our ability to problem solve! It's how I get a sense of self esteem anyway. If someone showed me how to solve a puzzle I wouldn't get the same feeling of accomplishment.

Ever get that feeling of underwhelm when you finally win?

Yes. I finally finally win and then I wonder if it was too easy after all. But it took me more than 100 days to beat Jeff in Half Life: Alyx and that is the best thing I ever did in my life. I quit the game because it was impossible but a friend teaching me gaming gave me advice and encouragement and I kept trying. He would kill me 20 times in an hour. Months of trying, desperate and finally one day I thought I killed him but they play a trick on you. I had to keep playing and fighting then he really was dead and I felt something I never did before. I didn't even care about the rest of the game, I was so happy I accomplished that. I sat there a long time just enjoying. I looked around and saw he was never coming back I finally killed him.

Re-playing the game I knew how to kill him and could do it and finish that map in about 15-20 minutes. That was not much fun.

It's because the journey is more satisfying than the destination. The trial and error and fine tuning strats. The anticipation of having another crack at it while not knowing if this will be the run. That's what makes games fun for me.

I think that's the same thought process when it comes to people frowning on 'backseating' in chat on Twitch. I'd only use a guide if I'd exhausted all other options, which it seems you had. What usually happens is I decide to take a break but never go back. Especially if its badly thought out game design or buggy. That is hard to tolerate.

Now taking your example of something like sailing, i wouldn't feel 'uneasy' learning a skill like that from others. It's a very specific thing to single player games. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, there's more than one way to skin a cat!

I am quite a good sailor. When I learned from other people it was after I already knew how to sail but at first it is also the only way to learn. I still never did solve one sailing problem, I never have met anyone who could tell me the solution and I wonder what it is.

In rock climbing people are very helpful. Everyone there seems to want everyone else to do better. It is a dangerous sport, I tore both my rotator cuffs and I cannot climb now but maybe if they get better.

I tried fighting the boss again just now. I tell myself to try once each day and hopefully I will get better but it is not fun, I do not feel like my skills are improving. I think I have to give in and watch other people play him and study what they do. I am still panicking and suddenly I don't know what to press and that's when he is killing me. I think that is what is supposed to happen and why they make him so big and add the sounds and music. I want to get past this level though, being stuck here forever is bad, no fun at all.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I guess not really cheating but kind of. I think the honest way to play is on my own, no help, just trying and learning myself. But it can start to hurt my feelings when I can't do any better, always killed in the same place. Sometimes it feels too bad and I want to quit. That is when I think I do not want to cheat but I do not want to give up either.

You are conflating two different ideas: honesty and independence.

Honesty means to play by the rules of the game. Period.

Cheating is breaking the rules. If you were to play blackjack with marked cards, that is cheating. Watching gamblers play cards in order to improve your skill is not cheating.

Learning totally on your own is a different standard. There are situations in which you have to learn on your own. If the plane you are flying on crashes into the Amazon rainforest and you are the only survivor and there is no communication with the outside world, then yes, you have to learn on your own.

Pretty much everything we learn can be improved by watching more skilled people.

Hm. I am thinking about that. I learned most about rock climbing and sailing by watching others. There were things I could never have figured out on my own no matter how long. It is very fast too, just seeing how someone does something a little different but it's important.


Can you talk more about that, an example?

It’s difficult for me to think of examples because once I know things, I forget about not knowing it. It’s like the memory gets written over. But I will try.

I have been taking voice lessons for a couple of years now. Each lesson, my teacher has me warm up with singing that imitates the sound a fire engine makes. Up and down, up and down, without any separate notes. You don’t hear a fire engine going la, la, la, la. It’s a continuous sliding up and down the scale.

I could not figure out why she was having me do this, except as a way to stretch my vocal range, but you can do that with la, la, la.

For this entire period I have struggled with making a leap up to a high note in one song. I can sing the note all right, but can’t make the leap. Sounds yucky.

One day the light bulb went off. I am to slide up into that high note. This sounds great. Not like a fire engine, of course, because in the song it’s not stretched out so far. Now I can apply it through out my repertoire. A huge jump in skill.

So listening to my teacher and doing the exercises and practicing the song took 2 years before I got it.

Explaining it this way makes me feel stupid. I’m not stupid. Just slow.

I hope that helps.

 

[grommet]

You are conflating two different ideas: honesty and independence.

I am thinking about this and trying to understand what it means. I think you are explaining clearly but I am still confused. Not your fault, my brain is trying to figure it out.

Honesty means to play by the rules of the game. Period.

That helps. That makes sense.

Cheating is breaking the rules. If you were to play blackjack with marked cards, that is cheating. Watching gamblers play cards in order to improve your skill is not cheating.

Learning totally on your own is a different standard. There are situations in which you have to learn on your own. If the plane you are flying on crashes into the Amazon rainforest and you are the only survivor and there is no communication with the outside world, then yes, you have to learn on your own.

Pretty much everything we learn can be improved by watching more skilled people.

It’s difficult for me to think of examples because once I know things, I forget about not knowing it. It’s like the memory gets written over. But I will try.

I have been taking voice lessons for a couple of years now. Each lesson, my teacher has me warm up with singing that imitates the sound a fire engine makes. Up and down, up and down, without any separate notes. You don’t hear a fire engine going la, la, la, la. It’s a continuous sliding up and down the scale.

I could not figure out why she was having me do this, except as a way to stretch my vocal range, but you can do that with la, la, la.

For this entire period I have struggled with making a leap up to a high note in one song. I can sing the note all right, but can’t make the leap. Sounds yucky.

One day the light bulb went off. I am to slide up into that high note. This sounds great. Not like a fire engine, of course, because in the song it’s not stretched out so far. Now I can apply it through out my repertoire. A huge jump in skill.

So listening to my teacher and doing the exercises and practicing the song took 2 years before I got it.

Explaining it this way makes me feel stupid. I’m not stupid. Just slow.

I hope that helps.

I liked hearing about you learning how to sing better. That is a long time to work on one thing. It must be very important to you. I think it was very expensive too. What a joy though once you figured it out. Those moments are so nice.

When I was learning to sail I would try to control the lines very tightly. My friend told me to let the boat "breathe", don't come in so tight, just a little. He was right and the boat sped right up. I always remembered that.

In rock climbing they teach you to stay close to the wall, hips in, keep your arms straight and my favorite one that helps me most "Nose over toes". That is great. If you keep your body straight up and down so your nose is over your toes your muscles do much less work, you are not fighting your own weight. I miss climbing. Maybe one day again. I do not miss sailing. It was wonderful but I did so much of it I am done.

There is a great very old joke about a sea captain retiring and having a party with so many people wanting to wish him well and say good-bye. He stays a long time, talking to everyone, it is very nice then strangely he picks up an oar and starts walking to the door. A person close to him asks him what he is doing.

He says I am going to keep walking and the first place they don't know what this is, I am going to live there

 

[thejuice]

Learning totally on your own is a different standard. There are situations in which you have to learn on your own. If the plane you are flying on crashes into the Amazon rainforest and you are the only survivor and there is no communication with the outside world, then yes, you have to learn on your own.

Pretty much everything we learn can be improved by watching more skilled people.

It’s difficult for me to think of examples because once I know things, I forget about not knowing it. It’s like the memory gets written over. But I will try.

I have been taking voice lessons for a couple of years now. Each lesson, my teacher has me warm up with singing that imitates the sound a fire engine makes. Up and down, up and down, without any separate notes. You don’t hear a fire engine going la, la, la, la. It’s a continuous sliding up and down the scale.

I could not figure out why she was having me do this, except as a way to stretch my vocal range, but you can do that with la, la, la.

For this entire period I have struggled with making a leap up to a high note in one song. I can sing the note all right, but can’t make the leap. Sounds yucky.

One day the light bulb went off. I am to slide up into that high note. This sounds great. Not like a fire engine, of course, because in the song it’s not stretched out so far. Now I can apply it through out my repertoire. A huge jump in skill.

So listening to my teacher and doing the exercises and practicing the song took 2 years before I got it.

Explaining it this way makes me feel stupid. I’m not stupid. Just slow.

I hope that helps.

Being an aspie feels like crashing into the rainforest and having to survive on your own. Maybe that has something to do with my outlook and how my mind works.

It's the same with saxophone, sliding up to a note is way easier. Making a jump up to a very high register usually results in no note coming out, just air or an ugly squeak

 

[FilterFreq]

I don't think it's cheating at all. What's cool is that the more you learn, the more you learn to do things on your own intuitively later on, so most of the people who don't have to do that have probably sunk a decent amount of time into playing similar games already. I think that's where the confusion tends to come from.

Although, I play a lot of games with puzzles embedded in them, so for me that would very much be cheating, but there are ways around that, too, like getting Chat GPT to explain concepts to you in detail so that you can learn more and overcome those obstacles.

Long story short, there are many ways to learn and have fun

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

Being an aspie feels like crashing into the rainforest and having to survive on your own. Maybe that has something to do with my outlook and how my mind works.

Good point!

It's the same with saxophone, sliding up to a note is way easier. Making a jump up to a very high register usually results in no note coming out, just air or an ugly squeak

Interesting.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I am thinking about this and trying to understand what it means. I think you are explaining clearly but I am still confused. Not your fault, my brain is trying to figure it out.

Did the further examples help or would you like more explanation? Think of me as ChatGPT. I won’t be upset with more questions.

That helps. That makes sense.


I liked hearing about you learning how to sing better. That is a long time to work on one thing.

That particular jump was not the only thing I worked on. I worked on many things. My teacher would show me how to hold my jaw and how to get the different kinds of resonance and voices, phrasing and breathing and all kinds of things. All that information goes in and rattles around in my brain and then sometimes a light bulb goes off.

It must be very important to you. I think it was very expensive too. What a joy though once you figured it out. Those moments are so nice.

The ah-hah moments are nice. Music is very important to me. One can always learn more.

When I was learning to sail I would try to control the lines very tightly. My friend told me to let the boat "breathe", don't come in so tight, just a little. He was right and the boat sped right up. I always remembered that.

In rock climbing they teach you to stay close to the wall, hips in, keep your arms straight and my favorite one that helps me most "Nose over toes". That is great. If you keep your body straight up and down so your nose is over your toes your muscles do much less work, you are not fighting your own weight. I miss climbing. Maybe one day again. I do not miss sailing. It was wonderful but I did so much of it I am done.

There is a great very old joke about a sea captain retiring and having a party with so many people wanting to wish him well and say good-bye. He stays a long time, talking to everyone, it is very nice then strangely he picks up an oar and starts walking to the door. A person close to him asks him what he is doing.

He says I am going to keep walking and the first place they don't know what this is, I am going to live there

You have learned some impressive skills. Although I like canoeing, sailing scares me - even as a passenger. Rock climbing seems scary too.

 

[Jonn]

I still have not beaten that boss but I am getting better by doing what he did. I did not keep trying on my own to learn it, I got frustrated because I could not leave that level and decided to watch how somebody else did it. Is is cheating if I watch someone else's technique so I get better?

If it is single-player mode, why would it be cheating?

I have no problem looking at youtube videos to understand my enemy if it is a problem.
Elden Ring is known for extremely hard bosses to beat.

 

[Jonn]

Not really cheating. But you can't say you figured it out completely on your own, which is important to some people and not others.

Agreed.

I am not goal-oriented and don't feel a need to say I did it all on my own.
My eye-hand co-ordination isn't great so I am happy to get help where I can.

 

[Jonn]

Everyone -everyone, looks and even examines closely the performance of those more skilled when trying to improve their own skills.

It is done in real life.
In war...
In commerce...
In industry...

 

[grommet]

Did the further examples help or would you like more explanation? Think of me as ChatGPT. I won’t be upset with more questions.

Thank you for trying to explain. People always get upset when I keep asking questions about the same thing. I will not trust people any more saying it is okay. It is not about the honesty of the person saying that. I think they mean it but people are not machines and they can get frustrated. ChatGPT never yells at me, I can ask it the same question even though it explains something clearly. I can do that forever and it never gets mad.

People get mad even though they said they would not. I cannot go through that any more. I know I am different, I learned that when I was a child. I have learned to keep quiet. Figure things out on my own or try to ask for just a little help. I cannot take being told again I am so frustrating. Again, it is not other people's fault. The nicest person I knew finally got too frustrated with something they had explained so many times but I asked again. I think for someone like me there needs to be the patience of a machine.

I think I would treat someone the same way, how many times can you try to explain something without feeling so much frustration yourself it comes out and the other person sees it?

That particular jump was not the only thing I worked on. I worked on many things. My teacher would show me how to hold my jaw and how to get the different kinds of resonance and voices, phrasing and breathing and all kinds of things. All that information goes in and rattles around in my brain and then sometimes a light bulb goes off.

It must be very important to you. I think it was very expensive too. What a joy though once you figured it out. Those moments are so nice.

The ah-hah moments are nice. Music is very important to me. One can always learn more.



You have learned some impressive skills. Although I like canoeing, sailing scares me - even as a passenger. Rock climbing seems scary too.

Canoeing is nice. I only did that as a young child. I do not know why sailing scares people. I know it scares a lot of people. I used to sail tiny boats, sometimes seven foot dinghies in a very large rough bay. I would be very scared sometimes if I thought too much about it, like the time I was a mile from land and I thought about how there was only 1/4 inch of fiberglass between me and the dark very cold water and if I fell in I would drown. But it could also feel like pirate adventures and being alone in bad weather made me feel adventurous and brave and I never got to feel that way other times.

Being autistic means I am literal and doing exactly as I am told. My first sailing instructor had told me that if I was out and the wind got really bad I should point my boat towards the marina directly into the wind, then one point off (slightly off center). He said it would be very slowly but eventually the boat would work its way back in. One day I got into huge trouble, it was really bad, like maybe I need rescuing. I was alone and terrified because the wind was so bad I cold not hear myself scream and with all the sails reefed (made as small as possible) the wind was so strong it was making the boat sail just blowing against the mast.

I remembered what my teacher said though. I pointed straight in, then a tiny bit off and he was right. 45 minutes later I was back inside the marina safe. Very scary but one of those times I am grateful I am autistic.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

Thank you for trying to explain. People always get upset when I keep asking questions about the same thing. I will not trust people any more saying it is okay. It is not about the honesty of the person saying that. I think they mean it but people are not machines and they can get frustrated. ChatGPT never yells at me, I can ask it the same question even though it explains something clearly. I can do that forever and it never gets mad.

People get mad even though they said they would not. I cannot go through that any more. I know I am different, I learned that when I was a child. I have learned to keep quiet. Figure things out on my own or try to ask for just a little help. I cannot take being told again I am so frustrating. Again, it is not other people's fault. The nicest person I knew finally got too frustrated with something they had explained so many times but I asked again. I think for someone like me there needs to be the patience of a machine.

I think I would treat someone the same way, how many times can you try to explain something without feeling so much frustration yourself it comes out and the other person sees it?


Canoeing is nice. I only did that as a young child. I do not know why sailing scares people. I know it scares a lot of people. I used to sail tiny boats, sometimes seven foot dinghies in a very large rough bay. I would be very scared sometimes if I thought too much about it, like the time I was a mile from land and I thought about how there was only 1/4 inch of fiberglass between me and the dark very cold water and if I fell in I would drown. But it could also feel like pirate adventures and being alone in bad weather made me feel adventurous and brave and I never got to feel that way other times.

Being autistic means I am literal and doing exactly as I am told. My first sailing instructor had told me that if I was out and the wind got really bad I should point my boat towards the marina directly into the wind, then one point off (slightly off center). He said it would be very slowly but eventually the boat would work its way back in. One day I got into huge trouble, it was really bad, like maybe I need rescuing. I was alone and terrified because the wind was so bad I cold not hear myself scream and with all the sails reefed (made as small as possible) the wind was so strong it was making the boat sail just blowing against the mast.

I remembered what my teacher said though. I pointed straight in, then a tiny bit off and he was right. 45 minutes later I was back inside the marina safe. Very scary but one of those times I am grateful I am autistic.

OK I understand you have had some bad experiences with asking people to explain things. I have things that I have given up on expecting from people, so I understand that coping mechanism.

When I started teaching it was really fun interacting with the bright students. Then I realized (in my first semester) that they were doing great in class without my help and there were others who werer floundering. So I changed tacks and spent the bulk of my time with the students who were struggling. I taught the same things over and over, always looking for other ways to convey the information.

I also taught Anatomy and Physiology and Microbiology for nursing students at a community college. These courses were very hard for them. I coached them, made the information accessible, emphasized the parts they really needed to know as nurses. I never lost patience with any of my students.

I have had scary canoe experiences too, out on the lake in a 15 foot canoe with high waves and paddling in to the wind. It sure is exciting. In a canoe you pretty much have to paddle straight into the hard wind, or perhaps just a bit off, or you will capsize. If you get broadside to the big waves, the water just flips you over.

I am scared of sailing, even in good weather when everything seems to be under control. I don't like how the boat leans. That is unsettling. I guess it isn't fear as much as it is discomfort. I don't see the point.

 

[Outdated]

I felt like I might give up, it was too frustrating. I do not want to cheat, I feel so bad when I do it, but I am telling myself it is better that stop playing the game.

This is something a lot of people forget - It's not a contest or some type of exam. It's a Game, to play for Fun. If it's not fun then it's failing it's intended purpose. So you should play as you find most enjoyable and what other people think about that shouldn't matter.

I don't think I've ever played any single player games without cheating, to me it's more fun deciding beforehand which cheats I'll allow myself this time. And learning how to edit scripts and put my own little tweaks in there.

 

[grommet]

This is something a lot of people forget - It's not a contest or some type of exam. It's a Game, to play for Fun. If it's not fun then it's failing it's intended purpose. So you should play as you find most enjoyable and what other people think about that shouldn't matter.

I don't think I've ever played any single player games without cheating, to me it's more fun deciding beforehand which cheats I'll allow myself this time. And learning how to edit scripts and put my own little tweaks in there.

I wonder if I can game then. I have so much fun until a boss and I cannot stop him killing me. Then I feel bad about myself. I have a game in VR, Zero Caliber, that I have played more than 120 hours. It is fun. Just hard enough but I can also beat it. In Lies of P I use a PS4 controller and I never used one until two weeks ago. I forget where the buttons are. Maybe if I got better it would be more fun then it would be an intellectual challenge and that would be fun. Now it's like driving in a race and I keep pulling the emergency brake when I want the accelerator. So many times I mean to move but freeze and the boss beats me until I am dead. I hope I can keep trying.

Do you have an opinion on getting what's available now or waiting for the better version that will come in a few months? I am talking about the PS5 and the PS5 Pro that is coming in November but it is the same problem with all the other tech I need or use. I feel stuck. What if I get something and very soon they make a better version but I did not wait. But I think they always make it feel like that. Do you have advice about that kind of problem?

 

[grommet]

OK I understand you have had some bad experiences with asking people to explain things. I have things that I have given up on expecting from people, so I understand that coping mechanism.

When I started teaching it was really fun interacting with the bright students. Then I realized (in my first semester) that they were doing great in class without my help and there were others who werer floundering. So I changed tacks and spent the bulk of my time with the students who were struggling. I taught the same things over and over, always looking for other ways to convey the information.

I also taught Anatomy and Physiology and Microbiology for nursing students at a community college. These courses were very hard for them. I coached them, made the information accessible, emphasized the parts they really needed to know as nurses. I never lost patience with any of my students.

I have had scary canoe experiences too, out on the lake in a 15 foot canoe with high waves and paddling in to the wind. It sure is exciting. In a canoe you pretty much have to paddle straight into the hard wind, or perhaps just a bit off, or you will capsize. If you get broadside to the big waves, the water just flips you over.

Did you learn how to right the canoe? I have seen people practice that in kayaks but not in canoes. I wonder about all the water that would be in the boat. I know what you mean about taking a wave on the beam but I was in big waves once, the biggest I'd ever seen, about six feet when I was out in the bay, The trough got so deep it was dark for a moment. I remembered to point into the waves but wow, my bow went under the wave and I saw a thick wall of clear water coming over the deck towards me. It felt like slow motion. I was dry watching and then it flooded the dinghy and I was underwater in my seat. Started taking more waves on the beam after that. A rougher ride but I was dry.

I am scared of sailing, even in good weather when everything seems to be under control. I don't like how the boat leans. That is unsettling. I guess it isn't fear as much as it is discomfort. I don't see the point.

I think things should only be fun. If sailing felt miserable to someone, that is not good. I like when the boat heels. On a keelboat (larger than a dinghy, the kind of sailboat people picture when they think of boats) heels, it's so fun to me to go to the high side (the side opposite). It is like an amusement park ride to me. I can watch the foam and hear the loud water. For me it's great. Maybe awful for someone else. I feel like a sailor deep inside, like it is who I always was. Boats are more natural to me than anything else. The only place I feel calm and really at home is in a small boat shop (where boats are built and repaired).

Autistic, better being alone, I would go to the marina during the week when no one was around, rig a dinghy and go out on the bay all alone. What a feeling under the blue sky and all the water and not another person for a mile. All alone on earth. Scary because if anything goes wrong I could die and I was scared but what a feeling.

 

[Judge]

With Sim City 3000 I use the cheats to build a city on a broad basis. I was never really interested in "playing the game" to win or lose. And with The Sims 1 & 3 I used the cheats to build elaborate homes. I was never really interested in playing the game or manipulating the "Sims".

Is this cheating? I wouldn't care if it was. It's a game...I'm playing it the way I want.

Otherwise I probably wouldn't play them at all. So sue me.

 

[grommet]

With Sim City 3000 I use the cheats to build a city on a broad basis. I was never really interested in "playing the game" to win or lose. And with The Sims 1 & 3 I used the cheats to build elaborate homes. I was never really interested in playing the game or manipulating the "Sims".

Is this cheating? I wouldn't care if it was. It's a game...I'm playing it the way I want.

Otherwise I probably wouldn't play them at all. So sue me.

I am smiling. I think that is perfect thinking and I want to remember to think that way.

By the way I don't know if you have heard of Sim Town. It was after the Sim City and my friend wrote the entire game by himself. He worked 25 hour days for a year. I did not mis-write. He would work that long straight. Eat big hamburger and sleep. Then back to work again. I did not know about gaming at all and I looked at it. I said to him, "Can't you make all the characters move independently instead of all the same?"

He said he could, but it would take another year for just that