NT and Aspie Communication

[May Black]

This doesn't apply to me at all, I'm female, NT as far as I know, I can go a month without talking to my best friend, it doesn't change the fact we're close friends.

Considering I just went through 17 of this thread the NT part might be questionable. :/

 

[icesyckel]

Is it possible you skip steps, because they're obvious to you? Have you tried tracking back to where you lost them?

Not even remotely. In fact, I tend to do the opposite. I find NT's as you observed dont parse things out, so often that is problematic.

 

[Judge]

Most NT don't put effort into trying to figure out how they function, the thought of putting effort into trying to figure out how someone else functions is quite foreign to them.

Not only that our traits and behaviors are perceived as "foreign", but that there's no real incentive for NTs to be socially aware of autistic people simply given their overwhelming numbers versus those of autistic people in society.

The math being in their favor- not ours. Or as Alexis DeToqueville coined a similar social dynamic, "the tyranny of a majority". Thus they expect us to learn their ways...even though the reality may be that in many circumstances we are neurologically unable to do so.

 

[icesyckel]

Not only that our traits and behaviors are perceived as "foreign", but that there's no real incentive for NTs to be socially aware of autistic people simply given their overwhelming numbers versus those of autistic people in society.

The math being in their favor- not ours. Or as Alexis DeToqueville coined a similar social dynamic, "the tyranny of a majority". Thus they expect us to learn their ways...even though the reality may be that in many circumstances we are neurologically unable to do so.

And even though, in many cases, we have better reasons (or at least SOME reasons) than the majority for our "ways."

 

[May Black]

Not even remotely. In fact, I tend to do the opposite. I find NT's as you observed dont parse things out, so often that is problematic.

Have you considered your abstraction level might be too high for them to grasp? I consider myself fairly intelligent, I still need to reread things on those forums sometimes. I'm not a native speaker though, so it could be that as well.

Not only that our traits and behaviors are perceived as "foreign", but that there's no real incentive for NTs to be socially aware of autistic people simply given their overwhelming numbers versus those of autistic people in society.

The math being in their favor- not ours. Or as Alexis DeToqueville coined a similar social dynamic, "the tyranny of a majority". Thus they expect us to learn their ways...even though the reality may be that in many circumstances we are neurologically unable to do so.

And even though, in many cases, we have better reasons (or at least SOME reasons) than the majority for our "ways."

I do get where you guys are coming from, the whole society is normative, regardless of what minority you represent. I'd like to believe this overall attitude is slowly changing, at least formally. I was more considering the overall ability to comprehand each others differences on an individual level, where I believe Aspies are often more capable of grasping and average NT than other way around, even though you might not be able to make use of your findings. An average NT can successfully acquire skills to mechanically learn that an Aspie will react in a certain way, but lacks the ability to understand the systems that cause that particular behavior.

 

[Judge]

And even though, in many cases, we have better reasons (or at least SOME reasons) than the majority for our "ways."

True. Where many mistakenly perceive a majority consensus automatically translating into a form of "moral high ground". Potentially a precarious social dynamic in any democratic society.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Considering I just went through 17 of this thread the NT part might be questionable. :/

"This doesn't apply to me at all, I'm female, NT as far as I know, I can go a month without talking to my best friend, it doesn't change the fact we're close friends."

I think I'm this way when I don't see the person. I never see my Aspie friend (who lives in another state) or my friend Julia (she works so much we just text mostly) and if I don't text them frequently then I feel A LOT less close to them. I see my friend Mary and we talk on the phone and in person so I can go about 2 wks without talking to her before I start missing her.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Not even remotely. In fact, I tend to do the opposite. I find NT's as you observed dont parse things out, so often that is problematic.

You lost me, Mr. Icesyckel. I'm still looking up the word "parse".
But don't change that about yourself. I like how Aspies use big words!

 

[icesyckel]

You lost me, Mr. Icesyckel. I'm still looking up the word "parse".
But don't change that about yourself. I like how Aspies use big words!

I just meant, as others have pointed out, most NT's dont analyze their thinking and behavior in the specifc level of detail/depth as does the typical aspie.

 

[May Black]

I just meant, as others have pointed out, most NT's dont analyze their thinking and behavior in the specifc level of detail/depth as does the typical aspie.

You just need to dumb it down a notch, is all.

 

[Nolan1971]

I hate how so many people assume I am shy when I don't feel like talking especially at work.
I am anything but shy quite the opposite! I just take work seriously (focused) too much conversation distracts me from my tasks. If anything I pay more attention to a customers requests/needs having laser focus on serving them.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I just meant, as others have pointed out, most NT's dont analyze their thinking and behavior in the specifc level of detail/depth as does the typical aspie.

You just need to dumb it down a notch, is all.

I don't want to change anyone, May Black. Stay the way you are, Mr. Icesyckel, and keep using those big words. It's very refreshing! (That's what I told my Aspie friend too after he said people had made fun of him and he had to dial it down a few notches.) BUT if you're talking to me, Mr. Icesyckel, just be ready for me to say my usual stuff like "huh?, I don't get it, what does that mean?, wait I'm looking up that word" or my usual faces of ",,,".

 

[May Black]

I don't want to change anyone, May Black. Stay the way you are, Mr. Icesyckel, and keep using those big words. It's very refreshing! (That's what I told my Aspie friend too after he said people had made fun of him and he had to dial it down a few notches.) BUT if you're talking to me, Mr. Icesyckel, just be ready for me to say my usual stuff like "huh?, I don't get it, what does that mean?, wait I'm looking up that word" or my usual faces of ",,,".

I was hoping the smiley face would be obvious enough.

On a serious note though, I don't think it's about changing anyone, it's more about mastering a new language in the same way lets say African American using Ebonics are capable of switching to a more formal version of GA.

If I come to these forums, I make effort to write in a way that I hope will be comprehensible, I try to avoid double meanings if I notice them, I revise my posts and consider if they might be offensive in any way before I post them. I read very carefully too. It's a great training for my brain, and I appreciate it. I wouldn't be posting here otherwise.

However, when dealing with NTs, if the main concern is getting a message across, expressing it in the usual Aspie manner might not be the best approach. It's an effort - reward correlation really. The reward (the information received being interesting enough) always needs to be greater than the effort put into decoding the message. This goes both ways obviously.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I was hoping the smiley face would be obvious enough.

On a serious note though, I don't think it's about changing anyone, it's more about mastering a new language in the same way lets say African American using Ebonics are capable of switching to a more formal version of GA.

If I come to these forums, I make effort to write in a way that I hope will be comprehensible, I try to avoid double meanings if I notice them, I revise my posts and consider if they might be offensive in any way before I post them. I read very carefully too. It's a great training for my brain, and I appreciate it. I wouldn't be posting here otherwise.

However, when dealing with NTs, if the main concern is getting a message across, expressing it in the usual Aspie manner might not be the best approach. It's an effort - reward correlation really. The reward (the information received being interesting enough) always needs to be greater than the effort put into decoding the message. This goes both ways obviously.

I'm happy to have another NT giving their perspective on the "NT and Aspie Communication" thread. Thank you, May Black!

 

[Randomperson]

You just need to dumb it down a notch, is all.

Exactly! The average human being is only intelligent once they prove it.... No offense to anyone, but people are dumb as hell, until they prove otherwise.

And just to clarify, I have not seen a single dumb posting on this forum yet, so I am not saying there are not smart people, just that they are rare in every day life.

 

[icesyckel]

There is no one rule that applies for every situation, unfortunately for those of us who cope by making up rules. For example, I agree with May Black that "speaking over people's heads" in normal conversation is counter-productive, especially in that RandomPerson is correct that most people you meet "on the street" have a relatively limited intelligence/vocabulary (not directing this at anyone posting here - as random also noted).

HOWEVER, when speaking in a place where intelligence is above average, using a more specific word from our extended vocabulary often results in the more precise conveyance of ideas. What i am thinking in my head is not necessarily limited to words that have been defined, but if I am to communicate those thoughts to anyone other than Professor X, I have to find the words that will convey my thoughts as accurately as is possible.

Because of this, my ability to explain things to someone is often limited by that person's vocabulary. In law, I can say "the court acted on its own initiative" and sort of get an idea across, or I can say the court acted "sua sponte," which not only means the same thing but also conveys other unspoken messages from existing common law case precedents. If someone doesn't know the full meaning/import of sua sponte, however, then I am forced to say "the court acted on its own initiative" and dispense with the additional implications or basically teach the concept to the other person.

Unfortunately, I don't always know what words the other person does/does not know. Therefore, I am forced to guess in oral conversations based on observations/judgments of a given's person's intelligence that are only as accurate as the time put into the observations. Online, posting in forums, people can simply go to Google and type "define _________" to get the primary (and often secondary) definition for any word (you may need to go to an actual dictionary for tertiary meanings/definitions - also don't forget to click the arrow to "expand" on Google).

So, in person I tend to do the best I can. Online, I tend to be less restrictive on my use of vocabulary, though I still don't use less common words without a reason. I don't say everything is "copacetic" for example if "okay" will do. I don't wish to seem pretentious or even ostentatious, after all.

Of course, aspies tend to use pedantic language from a young age, likely out of a need/desire to ease the barriers of communication that exist between us and the neuro-typical who say so much without having to resort to any words at all.

 

[May Black]

HOWEVER, when speaking in a place where intelligence is above average, using a more specific word from our extended vocabulary often results in the more precise conveyance of ideas. What i am thinking in my head is not necessarily limited to words that have been defined, but if I am to communicate those thoughts to anyone other than Professor X, I have to find the words that will convey my thoughts as accurately as is possible.

You lost me there.

I'm going to go back to saying that your abstraction level is too high. It's not even the difficulty level of the words itself.

Therefore, I am forced to guess in oral conversations based on observations/judgments of a given's person's intelligence that are only as accurate as the time put into the observations.

This is a great example. None of those words are particularly difficult or require a high level of intelligence to understand when used separately, however, I had real trouble with this sentence. I had to stop and read it several times after which I finally ended up simplifying it for myself into "When I talk to people, I have to estimate how smart they are, which is easier to do if I talk to them longer." I have a degree in non-fictional translation, English being one of my two source languages.

Don't get me wrong, I really love your language, but I do understand why people might lose you in conversations.

 

[icesyckel]

You lost me there.

I'm going to go back to saying that your abstraction level is too high. It's not even the difficulty level of the words itself.

This is a great example. None of those words are particularly difficult or require a high level of intelligence to understand when used separately, however, I had real trouble with this sentence. I had to stop and read it several times after which I finally ended up simplifying it for myself into "When I talk to people, I have to estimate how smart they are, which is easier to do if I talk to them longer." I have a degree in non-fictional translation, English being one of my two source languages.

Don't get me wrong, I really love your language, but I do understand why people might lose you in conversations.

Well, knowing the dictionary definition of a word and being able to use/understand its use in a sentence are different skills. However, I must say that my problems have historically been in ORAL conversation. You are the first person to complain here (or elsewhere) about not being able to understand the things I write b/c they are too abstract. Nurse has indicated a few words I used were new to her, but she seemed able to read my posts after looking them up or asking to rephrase with a different word. Possibly others have had such difficulty but did not comment?

The quote you referenced was about the process of taking abstract thoughts in my head and finding words to best convey them, so in my defense on that subject matter it is difficult not to be at least a little abstract...

That said, getting back to my earlier post, I don't go out of my way to use "bigger" vocabulary words. Some words that are perceived as "big" or whatever are more precise. For example, if coffee is "bland," then that is slightly different than saying it is "insipid" or totally lacking in flavor. I try to remember to say bland or flavorless in conversation rather than insipid. I like posting here b/c I don't have to work so hard to use the "right" words. Most of the time, the word I type here is the first word that came to me. In the real world I filter almost everything I say.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Well, knowing the dictionary definition of a word and being able to use/understand its use in a sentence are different skills. However, I must say that my problems have historically been in ORAL conversation. You are the first person to complain here (or elsewhere) about not being able to understand the things I write b/c they are too abstract. Nurse has indicated a few words I used were new to her, but she seemed able to read my posts after looking them up or asking to rephrase with a different word. Possibly others have had such difficulty but did not comment?

The quote you referenced was about the process of taking abstract thoughts in my head and finding words to best convey them, so in my defense on that subject matter it is difficult not to be at least a little abstract...

That said, getting back to my earlier post, I don't go out of my way to use "bigger" vocabulary words. Some words that are perceived as "big" or whatever are more precise. For example, if coffee is "bland," then that is slightly different than saying it is "insipid" or totally lacking in flavor. I try to remember to say bland or flavorless in conversation rather than insipid. I like posting here b/c I don't have to work so hard to use the "right" words. Most of the time, the word I type here is the first word that came to me. In the real world I filter almost everything I say.

That's why I said that I don't want you to change, Mr. Icesyckel. I want you and all Aspies to feel comfortable here and not have to worry (especially if its because an NT doesn't understand you - you get that enough in the real world.) Keep using the vocabulary that comes easy for you. If there's something I don't understand, I'll just ask or look it up. I've never had a problem from any Aspie explaining words or the meaning to something (which I really appreciate because I feel a little dumb here at times to be honest.) But please, everyone just continue being yourself around me. I actually am secretly jealous that I can't use big words like that.

 

[icesyckel]

That's why I said that I don't want you to change, Mr. Icesyckel. I want you and all Aspies to feel comfortable here and not have to worry (especially if its because an NT doesn't understand you - you get that enough in the real world.) Keep using the vocabulary that comes easy for you. If there's something I don't understand, I'll just ask or look it up. I've never had a problem from any Aspie explaining words or the meaning to something (which I really appreciate because I feel a little dumb here at times to be honest.) But please, everyone just continue being yourself around me. I actually am secretly jealous that I can't use big words like that.

Well, read enough of them, and you are bound to remember some of them at least, no? I know you're NT, but not all aspies have an easy time with vocabulary either. Still, words are the only tools we have to communicate, and it is so useful to have the right tool when you need it. Was that abstract? Now I am getting paranoid...

At any rate, I will of course do as you ask, though, and write without the "filter." In return, please ask me to explain/reword if needed to understand. I don't mind.