What is AutiGender?

[Lia]

That's pretty different from what is being described here I think. People who are intersex are born with different sexual organs, hormones, chromosomes, etc. than male or female which is different from actually being male or female and labeling yourself as a different gender (which was what I was referring to when I was making my comment).

But that means you don't really believe in your previous statement. You said genitals determine gender, but now you're saying the opposite.

 

[SunnyDay16]

But that means you don't really believe in your previous statement. You said genitals determine gender, but now you're saying the opposite.

I do believe in my statement, but I don't think I worded it the right way. What I meant when I said "genitals determine gender" is that chromosomes and sex organs both determine sex (which is the same as gender in my mind). Since people who are intersex may have sex organs and/or chromosomes from both genders they aren't assigned male or female at birth, which proves my point that genitals and chromosomes determine gender in the medical sense which is what I go off of.

I'm not very educated on the topic so I could be wrong, but I haven't seen enough information to really change my mind. Some people see gender as a social, not biological reality, but I have always been raised up to see gender = sex, so it's hard to change that way of thinking.

 

[Lia]

I do believe in my statement, but I don't think I worded it the right way. What I meant when I said "genitals determine gender" is that chromosomes and sex organs both determine sex (which is the same as gender in my mind). Since people who are intersex may have sex organs and/or chromosomes from both genders they aren't assigned male or female at birth, which proves my point that genitals and chromosomes determine gender in the medical sense which is what I go off of.

I'm not very educated on the topic so I could be wrong, but I haven't seen enough information to really change my mind. Some people see gender as a social, not biological reality, but I have always been raised up to see gender = sex, so it's hard to change that way of thinking.

A lot of intersex people are assigned either male or female at birth, only to discover that they're intersex much later in life. So a person that is assigned female at birth, raised as a female and identifies as female, may discover as an adult that she has XY chromosomes and internal testicles. Since this person is a woman, her gender will not magically change after being aware of this, she will still be a woman. That's because there is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, but it's not strictly male or female.
You also said that "Having a masculine-ish personality doesn't make you a man, nor does have a feminine-ish personality make you a woman." and that is true. A cis man with a feminine personality = a man. A trans woman with a masculine personality = a woman. A non-binary person with a feminine personality = non-binary.

 

[KImi]

I find it amusing that you think any of this has to do with favorite color...

When I was a child it had a lot to do with it.. pink was seen as a 'girl's colour' and as a tomboy I didn't want to wear pink or dresses. A girl wearing pink was saying she was a very feminine girl, wearing trousers and dark colours and hanging out with the boys was a clear statement you didn't want to be a 'girly girl'.

Nowadays it seems acceptable for boys to wear skirts and dresses too and wear pink to prove a point that they can do these things and still be a male. It's no wonder kids today are confused about what gender they are!

Physically there are still only 2 options you're either born with male anatomy and therefore male or you're born with female anatomy and are female! They can still be a female engineer or a male hairdresser or nurse when they grew up but I don't see why we suddenly have to consider them 'non-binary'or 'gender-neutral' (which I thought was the current buzz word for parents who wanted their special snowflakes to be able to 'choose' their gender!) It's political correctness gone mad!

 

[KImi]

I laughed when the papers went mad reporting that for the first time a 'Man had had a baby! ' No he hadn't!! !t's physically impossible, it was a woman who THOUGHT she was a man but still had female anatomy...Biologically she was still female so that was a false statement! It's one thing for a small child not old enough to understand to play 'dress up' or 'pretend' but when parents are telling them from a young age they can 'choose their gender' and doing things like not referring to them as he or she until they reach an age they can choose, that is just ridiculous!!

 

[Bolletje]

Physically there are still only 2 options you're either born with male anatomy and therefore male or you're born with female anatomy and are female!

That's where you're wrong. Nature is funny like that.
Men with an extra X-chromosome (so 47XXY) often have small male genitalia, but can also develop breasts.
Men with androgen insensitivity syndrome (with "normal 46XY" karyotype) are born with female external genitalia (so a vagina), yet are genetically male. They don't have a uterus or fallopian tubes, but they do have undescended testes in their abdomen.
Women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (with "normal 46XX" karyotype) can have ambiguous genitalia, ranging from hypertrophy of the clitoris to a fully functional penis. They have a uterus and ovaries as well.

These are just a few examples. Now tell me how your simple rule works again?

 

[wight]

Let us call this topic of gender a "side interest" of mine. Following it for quite some time and reading about the genetic, neurologic, social, etc. aspects leads me to separate the broad descriptor "gender" into the following:
1) Physical gender - genetically determined, physical body parts
2) Gender identity - the internal, mental, self definition of the individual
3) Social gender - the external definition society/social convention labeled on an individual based on appearance and behavior

Obviously, it is impossible to separate these, they must be considered and evaluated together to sort out any particular individual's perception of themselves.

That ASD may impact/effect this self-perception of gender is no particular surprise. Which is likely what "autigender" references, should I be asked to take a guess.

 

[the_tortoise]

That's where you're wrong. Nature is funny like that.
Men with an extra X-chromosome (so 47XXY) often have small male genitalia, but can also develop breasts.
Men with androgen insensitivity syndrome (with "normal 46XY" karyotype) are born with female external genitalia (so a vagina), yet are genetically male. They don't have a uterus or fallopian tubes, but they do have undescended testes in their abdomen.
Women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (with "normal 46XX" karyotype) can have ambiguous genitalia, ranging from hypertrophy of the clitoris to a fully functional penis. They have a uterus and ovaries as well.

These are just a few examples. Now tell me how your simple rule works again?

Another example is how there can be translocation of specific genes from one sex chromosome to another -- like SRY from a Y chromosome to an X chromosome. resulting in XX males (they are usually infertile but they may have otherwise completely normal and functional male genitalia, and as far as I know they usually identify as males).

 

[KImi]

That's where you're wrong. Nature is funny like that.
Men with an extra X-chromosome (so 47XXY) often have small male genitalia, but can also develop breasts.
Men with androgen insensitivity syndrome (with "normal 46XY" karyotype) are born with female external genitalia (so a vagina), yet are genetically male. They don't have a uterus or fallopian tubes, but they do have undescended testes in their abdomen.
Women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (with "normal 46XX" karyotype) can have ambiguous genitalia, ranging from hypertrophy of the clitoris to a fully functional penis. They have a uterus and ovaries as well.

These are just a few examples. Now tell me how your simple rule works again?

These would have been considered birth defects years ago and not typical of a normal male or normal female body. Wanting to be in the body of the opposite sex used to be considered a mental health issue as it was considered there must be 'something wrong' with them, that they were unable to see they were clearly a male or female (whatever body they were born into) and behave appropriately. Yes it was probably considered the 'dark ages' but it was a much simpler time and most parents were sensible and taught their kids to behave appropriately in line with what gender they were. There is still no logical need to deliberately confuse a child by letting it grow up without referring to it as he or she and then 'letting them choose'! If they called the child by the appropriate pronouns from the beginning then the child themselves at a later age said they weren't happy with being that sex and still weren't after counselling then the parents have done everything they could to raise their child properly and the child has (mental/emotional) issues the parents have no control over. Like a parent can't control if the child is born disabled or not. That doesn't mean they should never expect the child to be able to fit in go school/work etc from the beginning or fit into gender rules at school (a boy having to wear the same uniform as all the boys do). The child should learn in THAT environment he has to conform to society rules how he dresses in his own time is up to him.

Even though I personally only feel I can be myself in my own home (probably due to severe Exposure Anxiety) I'm glad my parents at least taught me how to present as 'normal' so I can do it for short times where necessary for the times I have no choice but to deal with NT's. Without discipline and very clear (black and white) descriptions of the way things were and how I was expected to behave as a girl and in school, in public etc I don't think I'd have got as high educationally.

 

[the_tortoise]

but it was a much simpler time and most parents were sensible and taught their kids to behave appropriately in line with what gender they were

Yes, and they generally failed and caused horrific damage to their children in the process -- they still do, when it happens today. People may conform to social expectations but it doesn't mean they actually change their gender identity. It's similar to how homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness and was "treated" (unsuccessfully, in reality). Transgender people are one of many natural variations that are possible when it comes to how sex/gender develops, just as homosexual people are one of many natural variations when it comes to human sexuality. (And the sexuality of hundreds of other species.) Should homosexuals just pretend to be straight because in the past our society did not understand that homosexuality was not a mental illness but a normal and perfectly healthy form of human sexuality?

There is a famous case study by Milton Diamond, where a boy was reassigned female shortly after birth following an accident during circumcision. This boy never accepted his assigned female gender, despite knowing nothing of his original biological sex, and later transitioned back to male....this study is often cited as evidence that gender identity is innate, and has a lot more to do with biology than with socialization.

It also happens sometimes that intersex infants who are assigned one sex over another turn out to have a gender identity opposite to the sex they are assigned, and later wish to transition to the sex that matches their gender identity.

No one, to my knowledge, has ever provided any evidence to suggest that the mechanisms underlying the development of gender identity in transgendered people is any different than the mechanisms underlying gender identity development in cisgendered or intersex people, so it is reasonable to assume it is the same mechanism and something has happened biologically (likely before birth) to make it develop in opposition to all the other aspects of their sex/gender.

Transgender people who are raised to conform to their biological gender -- raised with very strict gender norms and no tolerance for cross-gender play or behavior or dress or mannerisms -- their gender identity is not changed because of their upbringing. They are simply truamatized and confused by being forced to act like someone/something they are not, being told they actually are someone/something they are not (and maybe that they are crazy/bad for even thinking, let alone actually voicing, anything in opposition to what they are told) . Many kill themselves.

Gender variant/transgender people have existed for a long, long time -- possibly for as long as there have been humans. There are traditional societies that recognized them and accepted them, validating their gender identities long before the concepts of gender identity or being transgendered (or "transsexual" as it used to be known) even existed in Western societies. (And by the way, there are stories of transgendered people in Western society dating back at least to the 1800s.)

Transgender children (at least those who have binary gender identities as male or female) can quite easily fit into society and be accepted if allowed to live as the gender that aligns with their gender identity, particularly if they are allowed to medically transition (or at least to hold off puberty until they are considered mature enough to make decisions about permanent medical treatments) and their birth-assigned gender is not public knowledge.

Gender variant children who do not have clear binary identities or who are well into puberty, or whose birth-assigned gender is widely known, also sometimes fit in and are accepted by their peers and community regardless. And if people didn't normalize and justify ostracization and cruelty they would be accepted all the time in all communities.

There is absolutely no good reason, in my opinion, to force anyone to live as a gender they are not. It hurts noone to allow people to live as themselves, as whatever gender their brain tells them they are. (Or even whatever gender they wanted to be -- transgender people are not choosing a gender identity, it is not something they have any control over, but even if a person just wanted to live as a different gender on a whim I don't understand what the problem with that is....whom would it hurt? Outside of an intimate relationship or a medical setting, why is it anybody else's business what shape a person's genitals are or what chromosomes they have? Why do you care what's in someone else's pants or under their shirt?)

There is no shame in being a transgendered or non-binary person, just like there is no shame in being a person with a disability -- meaning that there is no good reason to be ashamed of being any of those things.

Gender identity is not some fantasy or make-believe, it is not some kind of behavior or choice/preference, it is a real part of sex/gender, and it has biological roots.

 

[Ang]

Some tumbler bs.. hate liberals

 

[KImi]

whatever! If thats what you choose to believe. This conversation is very typical of ones I've seen on NT boards. I thought I was joining a group for people with Autism who would be able to indulge in their obsessions without people telling them to change the subject and meeting people in a more similar position to myself. Most of you seem much more able and more like NT, which if I wanted that I'd have just stuck with NT boards.

I am leaving however with a better understanding of why I do things and which bits of me are specifically the autistic bits, so I thank you all for that. Feel free to delete me cos I won't be coming back.

 

[SunnyDay16]

A lot of intersex people are assigned either male or female at birth, only to discover that they're intersex much later in life. So a person that is assigned female at birth, raised as a female and identifies as female, may discover as an adult that she has XY chromosomes and internal testicles. Since this person is a woman, her gender will not magically change after being aware of this, she will still be a woman. That's because there is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, but it's not strictly male or female.
You also said that "Having a masculine-ish personality doesn't make you a man, nor does have a feminine-ish personality make you a woman." and that is true. A cis man with a feminine personality = a man. A trans woman with a masculine personality = a woman. A non-binary person with a feminine personality = non-binary.

To some people, gender is the same as sex. I'm one of those people. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Lia]

To some people, gender is the same as sex. I'm one of those people. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I understand that is your opinion, but you're wrong. Sex does not equal gender.
You said yourself that you're not very educated on the topic, so how can you have such a strong opinion on something you don't know much about?
It's kind of like an NT person saying "to me, autism is a severe mental illness, so we'll just have agree to disagree." Most people on this site would not want to do that, but instead encourage people to do research and educate themselves.
If you don't understand how someone's gender can be different than the sex they were assigned at birth, then make an effort to learn more about this.

 

[the_tortoise]

whatever! If thats what you choose to believe. This conversation is very typical of ones I've seen on NT boards. I thought I was joining a group for people with Autism who would be able to indulge in their obsessions without people telling them to change the subject and meeting people in a more similar position to myself. Most of you seem much more able and more like NT, which if I wanted that I'd have just stuck with NT boards.

I am leaving however with a better understanding of why I do things and which bits of me are specifically the autistic bits, so I thank you all for that. Feel free to delete me cos I won't be coming back.

I am sorry you want to leave.

I don't think our differing viewpoints about sex/gender are about being more or less autistic, unless you mean that some of us have less black and white thinking about sex/gender? That is true but loads of NT people think exactly the way you do about sex/gender. (Loads of NTs have black and white thinking about a lot of things....black and white thinking is not something only autistic people do.)

And other autistic people on here share your perspective, too, so you are not alone. (Maybe most autistic people on here share your perspective and just don't want to talk about it for fear being judged or because it is a sensitive/controversial subject and they don't want to debate/argue with anyone.)

 

[SunnyDay16]

I understand that is your opinion, but you're wrong. Sex does not equal gender.
You said yourself that you're not very educated on the topic, so how can you have such a strong opinion on something you don't know much about?
It's kind of like an NT person saying "to me, autism is a severe mental illness, so we'll just have agree to disagree." Most people on this site would not want to do that, but instead encourage people to do research and educate themselves.
If you don't understand how someone's gender can be different than the sex they were assigned at birth, then make an effort to learn more about this.

Many people feel the same way I feel and have presented information to support their stance. The opposing side has too, but I don't feel like the information on that side is compelling enough to make me switch. But the way some people are talking down to those who disagree with makes me not want to learn more because I don't like being talked down to and I don't feel like autism can be compared to gender dysphoria.

 

[the_tortoise]

To some people, gender is the same as sex. I'm one of those people. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I understand that is your opinion, but you're wrong. Sex does not equal gender.

I sort of think they are the same, too, but that's because I see gender identity as "brain sex".

To me, sex/gender can be thought of as one thing with many parts -- gender identity is one of those parts, chromosomes are another part, genitals are another part, gonads and various other bits of the reproductive system are another part, hormones are another part, secondary sex characteristics are another part (things like beards and breasts), gender expression is another part.

Or, I can see sex as an the overarching category/complex whole and gender as one of its components....or gender as the overarching whole and sex as one of its components.... I can't really find any way to define either "sex" or "gender" that both makes sense to me and also separates them completely, whether I'm trying to look at them from a biological or a social standpoint (I can't completely separate the social from the biological either).....

 

[Lia]

Many people feel the same way I feel and have presented information to support their stance. The opposing side has too, but I don't feel like the information on that side is compelling enough to make me switch. But the way some people are talking down to those who disagree with makes me not want to learn more because I don't like being talked down to and I don't feel like autism can be compared to gender dysphoria.

If you feel like I'm talking down to you then I apologize. That was not my intention.
I am not comparing autism to gender dysphoria, but people who experience gender dysphoria are poorly understood by society, just like autistic people are.
If we want NT people to listen to us and learn about our experiences, then is it not fair of other people to expect us to do the same?

 

[SunnyDay16]

If you feel like I'm talking down to you then I apologize. That was not my intention.
I am not comparing autism to gender dysphoria, but people who experience gender dysphoria are poorly understood by society, just like autistic people are.
If we want NT people to listen to us and learn about our experiences, then is it not fair of other people to expect us to do the same?

Fair enough.

 

[Lia]

I sort of think they are the same, too, but that's because I see gender identity as "brain sex".

To me, sex/gender can be thought of as one thing with many parts -- gender identity is one of those parts, chromosomes are another part, genitals are another part, gonads and various other bits of the reproductive system are another part, hormones are another part, secondary sex characteristics are another part (things like beards and breasts), gender expression is another part.

Or, I can see sex as an the overarching category/complex whole and gender as one of its components....or gender as the overarching whole and sex as one of its components.... I can't really find any way to define either "sex" or "gender" that both makes sense to me and also separates them completely, whether I'm trying to look at them from a biological or a social standpoint (I can't completely separate the social from the biological either).....

I definitely see where you're coming from! And I absolutely agree that sex/gender can be thought of as one thing with many parts.
What I meant was that if sex equals gender the way some people in this thread believe it does, then penis always equals man, which is wrong because a woman assigned male at birth is not a man.