Why I do not want to be "out" is I never want to be excused

[StopDiagnosingPeople]

I strive to treat everyone the same: as a fellow human suffering under the human condition. If someone excuses your mistake, how do you know it's related to Autism? Do they typically tell you? Can't people ever just be compassionate and not have to "call people out"?

No. You're missing the point completely. You can be compassionate.

And it is fair to treat some people differently. Some people are disabled with something that makes them do socially inappropriate things without knowing, and we should not come down on them for that.

But me? I know not to. If I am an ass, come down on me the way I deserve. I'm not saying I am a bad person, but I have some crappy days and might lose my temper.

If that happens, I truly, absolutely do not wish to be accommodated. I want you to call it out as you would anyone else, because I do know better. If I am not sure that you will, I can never be sure I am not being an ass.

*sigh*

I can't stand that people seem to miss my point.

 

[StopDiagnosingPeople]

You will never be treated 100% treated NT all the time.

Because you aren't NT.

And this is absolutely, positively what I do not want! NO! DO NOT DO THAT!

Change NT to "white" and ask yourself if it still sounds ok.

 

[Fino]

And this is absolutely, positively what I do not want! NO! DO NOT DO THAT!

Change NT to "white" and ask yourself if it still sounds ok.

Of course it still sounds okay. Why would people treat you as if you're white if you're not white? That would be nice though because then everyone would have "white privilege" but unfortunately people are constantly treated differently based on the color of their skin.

I feel like you proved my point?

 

[Fino]

No. You're missing the point completely. You can be compassionate.

And it is fair to treat some people differently. Some people are disabled with something that makes them do socially inappropriate things without knowing, and we should not come down on them for that.

But me? I know not to. If I am an ass, come down on me the way I deserve. I'm not saying I am a bad person, but I have some crappy days and might lose my temper.

If that happens, I truly, absolutely do not wish to be accommodated. I want you to call it out as you would anyone else, because I do know better. If I am not sure that you will, I can never be sure I am not being an ass.

*sigh*

I can't stand that people seem to miss my point.

If you know better then why are you doing it? Lack of self-control? Is it possible that's something to be accommodated?

Your point is that when you act a certain way, perhaps something resembling how you're acting now, you want people to say, "HEY, that is NOT okay!" rather than, "I'm sorry you're angry and I know it's hard but it'll be okay, sweetie, just take a deep breath."

You don't want special treatment.
You don't want people to say, "it's okay for HIM to do that, because he's 'special'. Everyone please excuse him."

Your point isn't difficult to understand and people have repeated it back to you, if you'd like to quote them instead. I think you're missing other people's points.

Your desires are counter to reality. It won't happen. It can't happen. It's an illogical thought pattern that can't exist in the world as we know it.

 

[MeghanWithAnH]

It seems that what you're saying is that you hold yourself to an NT standard of behavior and you feel most comfortable and secure when everyone else also holds you to that standard. I think people here do get your point, it just brings to mind a lot of the stress that many of us have experienced from trying to act like something we are not and being harshly judged when we don't do a good job of it.

However, you completely have a right to decide how you want to act and how you want to be treated. If being treated like an NT makes you happier, then that's a perfectly reasonable way for you to live, as long as you can make it work without driving yourself crazy. And I definitely empathize with the fear of maybe having done something wrong and not knowing it because people think they were being nice by not telling you.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Control issues .

Discuss.

 

[Nauti]

It sounds to me like what I experience as a need for honesty.
I need to be held to account by people who care enough, about me, and our relationship, to do so.
I don't appreciate fake niceness, niceness that actually hides contempt and disregard, niceness that is the kind of niceness that inauthentic people use to virtue signal their own superiority.
That kind of "niceness" is not real kindness, it is fear in the guise of fake kindness, it is mistrust and shallow effect purely to avoid meaningful and non-shallow interaction. It is condescension, so that is what I meant by "I get it".

REAL people in my life (I don't have many, really only one true friend, but that is more than I had for my first 37 years) care about me enough to tell me the truth, when I am not acting in a way that builds trust and intimacy. And I care enough about him to LISTEN, to humble myself, to hear him out when I have done something that undermines him or invalidates him or triggers him or hurts him, inadvertently, in any way.
That is why I said I get it.

Do I though?

Edit. I should add, I don't think everyone I meet is fake or anything like that, it's more that I keep them at bay, at arm's length, because I've been very hurt and betrayed and discarded and left out a lot, so I do the polite, distant, not real (i.e. masking and "fake") thing myself.
I am often aloof and avoidant, because of these trust issues, so I don't give people a chance.
If I am rude to to them, I would really appreciate the communication, too, but that doesn't happen. I keep them at bay and most people do the same toward me.
It would help me if people showed me they want a genuine connection with me, but, so far, only one person, other than my children and my counselors who are paid to do so, has ever bothered to demonstate that level of care for what we share.

 

[StopDiagnosingPeople]

If you know better then why are you doing it? Lack of self-control? Is it possible that's something to be accommodated?

Because everyone screws up once in a while. That is why. I don't do it much. I'm a polite person. I need the same honesty that an NT is treated with. Never any coddling. I never need a whisper of "hey, be gentle, he's autistic." I never need someone saying "I know you have some issues related to autism, so..." I never need that.

Yeah, honesty. And no bias either.

 

[the_tortoise]

I need the same honesty that an NT is treated with.

I think you are maybe expecting more honesty than many NTs give each other.

When people are impolite or say upsetting/objectionable things, in many social circles, the standard normal response behavior is to pretend it isn't happening and continue being polite to the person (or to try to quietly disengage and ignore them), if at all possible.

 

[JDShredds]

Because everyone screws up once in a while. That is why. I don't do it much. I'm a polite person. I need the same honesty that an NT is treated with. Never any coddling. I never need a whisper of "hey, be gentle, he's autistic." I never need someone saying "I know you have some issues related to autism, so..." I never need that.

Yeah, honesty. And no bias either.

I understand your sentiment. With that said, NT's are notoriously less honest and more prone to coddling than those on the spectrum, so what you're asking for is a bit of an oxymoron. With that said, because of your sensitivity to it, I totally get it. You probably wouldn't be coddled by others on the spectrum if they knew (like those of us around here--- exhibit A from yours truly: I think you're being a bit difficult right now), but NT's would be much more likely to coddle you if they knew you were on the spectrum. And I can't stand that, either. I'm with you there.

On a somewhat related note, my own sister doesn't know I'm on the spectrum (yet), but I take her habit of overt empathy (over struggles in my life) as nothing but pity and coddling. It makes me seriously irritated. I'm a grown man and expect to be treated as such.

With that said, as a bit of a shout out to fridgemagnetman's tongue in cheek "control issues" comment above, I do think its treading treacherous waters to focus so much on how other people should be behaving and treating you. Also, this would seem to be more relevant to those in your personal life, so perhaps there are some difficult conversations you need to have.

 

[RosaViolet]

I just wonder why you're so harsh with yourself, at least it seems like that. We can all do with some self compassion, some mildness, some self-forgivefullness

This
and this:

I DO NOT WISH TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY

I think everyone gets that.

Nobody knows whether you are AS or NT (regardless of diagnosis), it is not written on your forefront and quite rightly shouldn't. You are a human person first and foremost and last.

You want to be treated equally. Does that word conveys what you want to say?


I think you are indeed too hard on yourself. NT cut themselves a lot of slack. They are far from perfect, make mistakes, many of them don't always treat autistic people nicely.., some of them are even nasty abusers and criminals. There is a range of behaviours and responses.

Of course you are fully responsible and accountable for your actions, especially if you are doing the wrong thing deliberately. You deserve the proportional sanction for the related 'offense'.

The thing about being treated equally.... if you are indeed autistic, you are not really...
Your brain works differently, you perceive the world differently, so you have different perspective and come across differently for that reason sometimes. NT perceive you behaving differently.

No matter how much you insist, camouflage or mask, some subtle aspects of it would show and NT people subconsciously would notice it and treat you .. differently to NT people because the NT people did not display those differences. So innocent minor things from your side could be misinterpreted, blown out of proportion, minor things for you would be magnified, big important achievements for you might be minimised, basically you will be treated the way everybody here describe how they are treated, sometimes they get acceptance and understanding, sometimes they get isolation, sometimes bullying, sometimes criminal abuse. None of the bad treatment is deserved (!), it is not the fault of autistic people.

So the problem, the reality of life is that you ARE treated differently, in fact you are treated less favourably, you are at a disadvantage.
So to restore equality, to mitigate the disadvantage you need reasonable adjustments.

The accommodation is not a favour that gives you perks. It is the instrument to restore equality and to give you equal opportunity to the others.

If accommodations were a perks, all rich people and celebs would pay a lot of money to be declared autistic or disabled...

It doesn't have to be an 'accomodation', if you are averse to the word.
It could simply be human beings being nice and considered with each-other, forgiving and supporting, because we are all different, we all have strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes we need support, sometimes they need support from us. Just being nice to each-other.

 

[RosaViolet]

I do think its treading treacherous waters to focus so much on how other people should be behaving and treating you. Also, this would seem to be more relevant to those in your personal life, so perhaps there are some difficult conversations you need to have.

Is it fair to say you don't want discrimination?
That is the real issue really, no?

 

[JDShredds]

Is it fair to say you don't want discrimination?
That is the real issue really, no?

Could you elaborate on what you mean by your question? For instance, I'm not sure to whom you were referring as the subject of "you" in your question.

Did you mean in regards to, in general, one would not want to be discriminated against whether or not one is NT or ND (or any other "group" as it were)?

(Aside: I could go on a bit of a rant on the term "discrimination" and how western society has distorted the word under a social context. The true reality is we all, by necessity, discriminate every day of our lives for valid reasons).

 

[StopDiagnosingPeople]

Is it fair to say you don't want discrimination?
That is the real issue really, no?

I don't want anyone to ever think of me as different, see me as different, judge me as different, assume I am different, discriminate anything. I hate being treated as anything other than NT

And if you say "But you are different"

Yeah, not that different! and everyone is different from everyone else.

And it doesn't matter if I am NT or not. What matters is do others know. They don't. I am keeping it that way.

 

[RosaViolet]

I was replying to @Stopdiagnising.
'In general, one would not want to be discriminated against whether or not one is NT or ND (or any other "group" as it were)? ' - I agree with that in every context.

'If I am an ass, come down on me the way I deserve'

The OP question about not wanting to be treated differently, being applied equally high expectations regarding being nice to other people could be interpreted as a concern of being discriminating against in interpersonal relationships. Concern over a risk of not being taken seriously, being patronised, dismissed, ignored and petted and any other way of essentially treating the autistic person less favourably.

This is how it comes across to me.

While preoccupation with how others are treating you generally out of context could be seen as controlling, it is absolutely a legitimate expectation and desire in my view to not be treated less favourably, to not be discriminated against.

I use the word discrimination as treating less favourably, being at a disadvantage due specifically to the characteristic of autism. As I was saying treating equally may require accommodations.

 

[RosaViolet]

Article about perspectives in relationship and how attitudes to autism stereotypes by family members can create obstacles to effective communication.

Perspectives taking is two sided:

Brett Heasman (LSE) discusses his recent study published in the journal Autism,
"Perspective-taking is two-sided: misunderstandings between people with Asperger's syndrome and their family members". SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

It shows that NT family members may fail to seek understanding and connection when they rely too much on limiting stereotypes and this creates barriers to communication. AS adults feel frustrated at the barriers their family members and society build.

The representations about autism (stereotypes) are shaping the interpersonal dynamics. NT family members are prevented from probing further the causes of misunderstandings because they interpret the situation partial to their beliefs about autism. AS family members experience great frustration because they have better self-other awareness than the cultural representation gives them credit for.

 

[the_tortoise]

The true reality is we all, by necessity, discriminate every day of our lives for valid reasons

I see your point and agree with what you mean to a point....but words take on different, sometimes more specific meanings in particular contexts, and languages change over time -- it is natural for words to take on and lose meanings. It is the (sometimes unfortunate and often confusing) nature of language. It is not necessarily a bad thing for a word to take on a different meaning in a particular context, or even to change meaning in all contexts....

 

[Fino]

I don't want anyone to ever think of me as different, see me as different, judge me as different, assume I am different, discriminate anything. I hate being treated as anything other than NT

And if you say "But you are different"

Yeah, not that different! and everyone is different from everyone else.

And it doesn't matter if I am NT or not. What matters is do others know. They don't. I am keeping it that way.

If you admit that everyone is different from everyone else then doesn't it logically follow that everyone is treated different from everyone else?

 

[StopDiagnosingPeople]

If you admit that everyone is different from everyone else then doesn't it logically follow that everyone is treated different from everyone else?

Yes it does. But I do not want to be treated differently because I am seen as being in the autistic group. You should treat me as a middle aged white guy from the United States. That's how you treat me. You don't ever treat me differently than an autistic person.

I prefer it this way. It is of the greatest importance to me.

And, respectfully, I think this goes to illustrate why I find it hard to consider myself autistic. It is harder for me to find support for such things in a group of autistic persons than with neurotypical persons. If I discuss this with my NT friends, they'll be fine and get the gist of what I am saying very well. When I go to someone who is autistic, it is far more likely that they will not understand the nuance and become overly literal, stubborn and insistent.

I have difficulties talking to autistic persons, and when I have sought them out as peers for any kind of support, inevitably there is conflict. They don't understand me better than NT's. They always understand me far worse.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

You should treat me as a middle aged white guy from the United States. That's how you treat me

That's the last thing I'd want to be treated as.

have difficulties talking to autistic persons, and when I have sought them out as peers for any kind of support, inevitably there is conflict. They don't understand me better than NT's. They always understand me far worse.

So we're all stupid. It we knew that,anyway. Right guys?


Do the get me wrong. I have no problems with your goals or how you want to be perceived.

I hope it goes well for you. But there seems to be an element of conflict you're dragging with you.
(Maybe I'm wrong about that)