Bullying

[Progster]

The dictionary defines what words mean. Violence or threats of violence is an example of bullying. Calling someone harmless words is an example of teasing. They are not the same.

Which dictionary is that?
A group of children start to poke gentle fun at a classmate because he has red hair and they call him "carrot". The boy finds that funny and laughs. It's ok, they are his friends. His friends see that he's ok with "carrot" and it becomes his nickname. Teasing, but no harm done and no malicious intent. Not bullying.

Another group of kids see a boy with red hair and call him "carrot". The boy gets upset, and they think it's funny that he gets upset. It then becomes a game. So every time they see the boy, they call him "carrot" just to see his reaction. This is teasing with malicious intent. The kids can see that the boy is upset, and yet they continue, for their own amusement. This is bullying. I believe that this is what the OP is describing.

If you systematically continue with the teasing with the full knowledge of the emotional suffering you are causing, then it's bullying. Bullying doesn't just mean physical harm, it is also about emotional harm. Whether a person has the emotional maturity or a strategy to deal with the bullying or not doesn't detract from the fact that at that moment it's causing harm. Now, that person may indeed benefit from help to deal with the bullying, but to call the words "harmless" is wrong, as clearly right now they are doing harm.

 

[Au Naturel]

Pull the kid from school. What backlash are you imagining?

A lot of autistic kids are more vulnerable to teasing because they lack a social understanding of it. What Progster says is correct. An NT would let it slide off their back like water off a duck. An autistic child takes it literally. The other kids are reacting to a discovered vulnerability. The teachers are insisting that an autistic child ought to behave and understand just like an NT child. The child cannot.

It is a variation of the "If only you would (fill in the blank) you wouldn't have any problems." routine. There is a reason why schools in California have separate classes for kids on the spectrum. They have special needs and special vulnerabilities. I don't know what country you are in but there may be laws that are being ignored.

 

[Matthias]

Which dictionary is that?
A group of children start to poke gentle fun at a classmate because he has red hair and they call him "carrot". The boy finds that funny and laughs. It's ok, they are his friends. His friends see that he's ok with "carrot" and it becomes his nickname. Teasing, but no harm done and no malicious intent. Not bullying.

Another group of kids see a boy with red hair and call him "carrot". The boy gets upset, and they think it's funny that he gets upset. It then becomes a game. So every time they see the boy, they call him "carrot" just to see his reaction. This is teasing with malicious intent. The kids can see that the boy is upset, and yet they continue, for their own amusement. This is bullying. I believe that this is what the OP is describing.

If you systematically continue with the teasing with the full knowledge of the emotional suffering you are causing, then it's bullying. Bullying doesn't just mean physical harm, it is also about emotional harm. Whether a person has the emotional maturity or a strategy to deal with the bullying or not doesn't detract from the fact that at that moment it's causing harm. Now, that person may indeed benefit from help to deal with the bullying, but to call the words "harmless" is wrong, as clearly right now they are doing harm.

It's teasing and not bullying in both circumstances since the intent was to poke fun for their own amusement and not to maliciously harm the boy. In the second case, the boy's emotional suffering occurred due to his own negative thinking and not because the word "carrot" harmed him.

Teaching him that his own thinking caused him to feel worse would help him understand and regulate his emotions which would help him make friends and grow up to be a resilient, emotionally mature adult. Blaming the other children by punishing them or switching schools teaches children that other people control their emotions (a cognitive distortion known as a control fallacy) which can make them feel like helpless victims and increase the likelihood of them developing a mental illness.

Regardless of whether you call it teasing or mild bullying, my advice is the same either way. Science is very clear that personal responsibility leads to resilience while blaming problems on everyone else is a major risk factor for mental illness and poor outcomes.

 

[Aspychata]

So being surrounded by people laughing and calling you names doesn't class as bullying? YES. IT. DOES.

Your posts are the polar opposite of helpful. You are basically blaming people who were harmed by teasing and implying that it is all their fault. This is the definition of victim blaming!

I will be monitoring what you post very closely from now on and I will not hesitate to call you out when you post disrespectful, bull poo grade answers like you have in this thread. I'm pretty certain that many other members feel the same way about you. The ones that drew my attention to this thread certainly do.

Thank you for standing your ground and trying to educate someone re: a very difficult subject manner. Sadly, school shootings are very serious, these are students who feel they have no voice and nobody validates what they are feeling because of callous attitudes.

 

[Aspychata]

It's teasing and not bullying in both circumstances since the intent was to poke fun for their own amusement and not to maliciously harm the boy. In the second case, the boy's emotional suffering occurred due to his own negative thinking and not because the word "carrot" harmed him.

Teaching him that his own thinking caused him to feel worse would help him understand and regulate his emotions which would help him make friends and grow up to be a resilient, emotionally mature adult. Blaming the other children by punishing them or switching schools teaches children that other people control their emotions (a cognitive distortion known as a control fallacy) which can make them feel like helpless victims and increase the likelihood of them developing a mental illness.

Regardless of whether you call it teasing or mild bullying, my advice is the same either way. Science is very clear that personal responsibility leads to resilience while blaming problems on everyone else is a major risk factor for mental illness and poor outcomes.

Great advice for NT. But this is a forum for ND in a NT world. Now maybe you would like to solve school shootings why you are at it. Bullying and hazing has become so accepted that you have fallen into that trap of thinking, and trivializing this type of behavior.

Think it also proves mob mentality happens as early as grade school, where kids are trying to be accepted and will follow along at the expense of the target child. However, l feel horrible what happened to the OP's child and how little support the child is receiving from the school system. I lived thru this with my daughter, l was very upset.

 

[Hypnalis]

Matthias

What you're doing is dismissing a potentially valid judgement call by the only person with accurate information.

OP says her child has been getting bullied for a very long time.

Here's some guidance for you: it's only teasing when both sides can laugh at it. If one "side" is laughing and the other not, and it goes on for a long time, it's almost certainly bullying. For now, the right thing to do is accept OPs viewpoint.

Here are the first three lines of the "The Narcissists' Prayer":
It didn't happen
And if it did, it wasn't that bad
And if it was, that's not a big deal

You're currently (and I truly hope temporarily) profiling as someone doing a DARVO because you feel sympathy for the perpetrators.

Empathy (and Occam's Razor) leads us to initially consider the victim's perspective.
Of course there are real narcissists who fake being victims, so you have to be a bit skeptical. But to do the analysis you need sufficient facts, gathering more information (available only from OP) first if necessary.

Let it go for now. Await developments.

 

[Judge]

I dealt with a couple of older boys who bullied me in elementary school by knocking the cr-- out of them.

My answer to this problem as well. Though I've never been able to constructively explain it in terms of exporting the idea. Though I think it remains a sad reality that bullies generally only respond to force that they don't expect.

Though as an adult with lots of liability experience, I also have a keen understanding of how administrators are likely to respond to a message from the parents of a bullied student with a legal letterhead.

 

[Luca]

A reminder:

People DIE from suicide because they are told “suck it up” and “it’s all your fault” for their entire lives.

And I’m not full of crap btw, because if my suicide attempts had been successful and I hadn’t been hospitalized and gone through treatment, I wouldn’t be here to point this stuff out. I have permanent emotional scars, and physical scars on my body because of bullying… not only self-inflicted but from physical bullying too.
I think the responses in this thread are legitimate proof of how many kids lose their lives to bullying and cyberbullying. And I’m glad all of you are still here.

Some people are so impacted by bullying that they develop PTSD and/or a phobia of social interaction and leaving their house.
I was so terrified of going to school that I would literally lock myself in the bathroom and barricade the door. I would’ve rather eaten poison every day for breakfast than go to school and deal with “teasing.” Which included being beaten up and getting death threats and having my belongings get stolen and destroyed.
Part of the problem is how the American education system treats neurodiverse students…

Maybe some people aren’t as impacted by it, and can just ignore it or brush it off, but for most people, especially children, that is far from being the case. Bullying can ruin people’s lives and even end them.

 

[Judge]

Maybe some people aren’t as impacted by it, and can just ignore it or brush it off, but for most people, especially children, that is far from being the case. Bullying can ruin people’s lives and even end them.

I suspect most of us carry some pretty bitter memories of such experiences. I know I do. Forcing me to recall being in the sixth grade, when I pretty much withdrew from everyone. Learned to isolate myself at an early age.

Sad times I can never forget. Especially in being bullied by a teacher, let alone a group of fellow students.

 

[Outdated]

I wasn’t going to respond to this thread because it’s an emotional topic for me, but if I can help save just one child from having to go through what I suffered then my emotional pain is worth putting up with. The price is fair.

The name calling and teasing soon develops in to physical abuse. Some teachers will also join in with verbal abuse and egg the other kids on, actively supporting the abuse.

My father’s attitude of “They’re kids, they’ll sort it out.” was a betrayal.

In all of my yearly school photos my nose is a different shape and in a different position on my face.

I got kicked in the nuts that many times that they retreated back up in to my abdomen and I was never able to sire children.

My brow beaten and down trodden character made me more attractive to paedophiles – also teachers.

It was the most traumatic period of my entire life and the only thing that got me through it was the knowledge that the day I turned 16 I could leave and I would never have to see any of them again.

My sister tried to teach me how to look after myself. She explained to me that I was a lot smaller than everyone else and my wrists were too skinny so I couldn't fight like they did, I had to fight according to how I was built. She taught me quite a few things, like punching with the heel of my hand instead of a fist so my wrists didn't break, and how to pick on nerve and pressure points. And if a man is a lot bigger than you don't fight the whole man, just attack one arm until it doesn't work any more.

When Louise fought there was never any hissing and scratching, she usually opened with a headbutt. The only time she ever grabbed anyone's hair it was for extra force and accuracy as she brought her knee up. Most of the kids in school were scared of her, even the older ones, she was the enforcer that settled all arguments. My problem was psychological though, not physical. If I ever got angry like I did with my brother I could have flattened any of them, but they never made me angry, they just made me sad. They'd belt the crap out of me and I'd just try to get away, I never fought back.

Many years later as an adult I discovered that if I lose my temper I can be a particularly scary example of what humanity has to offer, but I only ever got that angry when I saw someone else being picked on, especially women. When someone attacks me the anger doesn't come, it's just shock, surprise and bone deep sadness.

I caught three boys picking on a little kid one day, all about 11 years old, when I was living in Melbourne. The reaction was pure instinct, there was no conscious thought involved, it just happened while I watched myself do it. Two were holding the skinny kid's arms and a third had just punched him in the face, I walked in behind him and cuffed that third kid behind the ear exactly the same as my father used to do to me.

I really didn't hit him hard, no worse than my father would have done to me, but the shock of it knocked him off his feet and he fell over. His two mates ran. Granny Carter came out in me, I looked down at him and said "Well!?", he got up and ran too. The little skinny kid was crying through a blood nose but he thanked me. I told him "That's alright, don't worry about it. One day you'll be all grown up and then you'll stick up for little kids too, won't you?"

The look on that kid's face is one of my most treasured memories, it wasn't a single expression, it was a transformation through several of them. It was like I could see all the thoughts shifting across his face as they formed, it must be how other people see me. It took a few seconds and I watched while I waited for a response.

Fear. Relief. Gratitude for being saved. Gratitude for being understood. Gratitude for lack of useless platitudes. Hope. Determination. "Yes!" he said, "I will!". I smiled and nodded to him like tradesmen do to each other and left. I did a good thing.

 

[Fino]

It's hard to say without actually seeing exactly how it's occurring, but I don't believe violence is a rational response to being called names, especially names with no inherently insulting meaning.

It's also hard to say without knowing the content of the video from which these nicknames originate.

Is it not a possibility to own the nicknames? They sound like they could easily be given to someone affectionately. I'm not saying this is the case.

I've never quite understood people's emotional responses to words from people they don't care about. Insults from a loved one are hurtful.

I've been called terrible strings of insults all my life, and I never saw how that could hurt me.

I was regularly beat up for years. That is something I consider bullying/abuse and have unbearable sympathy for it.

 

[Au Naturel]

I agree that force will stop bullies but it's too risky for a child on the spectrum to do that, IMHO. The school and teachers should deal with this immediately.

I dealt with a couple of older boys who bullied me in elementary school by knocking the cr-- out of them. I picked up one of them by his shoulders and threw him on the floor of the school bus and slapped another one so hard on his face that he fell out of his chair and bounced off the floor. Neither one ever bullied me or anyone else again. I didn't get into trouble for doing it, either, probably because the bullies were too ashamed of getting beat up by a little girl to tattle on me.

I learned as a child that it didn't matter if I won or lost. All I had to do is to be willing to deliver some damage to a bully and the bullying ended. Bullies are averse to pain. Back in those days you were expected to stand up for yourself.

Not everyone has my ability to accept physical pain and not everyone has the capacity or the will to deliver pain. These days the victim who defends themself is more likely to be blamed than the bully. The bully will often lie very convincingly. Plus self defense doesn't help if the bullying is verbal. You really are expected to take it and be good natured about it.

 

[Progster]

It's teasing and not bullying in both circumstances since the intent was to poke fun for their own amusement and not to maliciously harm the boy. In the second case, the boy's emotional suffering occurred due to his own negative thinking and not because the word "carrot" harmed him.

I disagree. The very fact that emotional suffering did take place, the kids were aware of it and yet continued the name-calling means that it's bullying, not just harmless teasing.

The boy might indeed benefit from emotional counseling, or changing how he feels or reacts towards it, that's a different matter, but the fact still remains that harm is being done where the perpetrators are aware of the harm (because they see the boy crying). From the moment the kids are aware of the boys distress, and yet continue, the fun poking becomes malicious, is with intent and is bullying.

 

[Hypnalis]

Please stop the stories of violence here. The rationale is that the current thread might drive OP away.

Note that I'm not trying to erase your experiences or the traumas they caused.
Just redirect the specific thread in which they're current being discussed.

Perhaps a new thread could be started: in some forums it's possible to "clone" threads, or the mods might like to do it manually.

Note that OP hadn't returned to this thread yet, so the status right now:
* It's been highjacked with two opposite views: a denial one and the violence/ suicide one
* We're probably far away from what OP could usefully discuss here
** OP hasn't signaled that there's any violence involved, so the best tactical solution is most via a lawyer.

So while I think both "hijacks" are well worth discussing in the right place, I don't think it's fair to OP to do it here.

BTW: I wrote a post earlier that I hope will tone down the "denial" arc too, for more or less the same reason.

OFC I don't really expect this to work - forums aren't normally like that - but:
* The thread started out about a young ND having potentially quite serious problems. I think an immediate priority is to help them as best we can.
* Other important issues have come up to, but IMO they would be better handled in parallel

 

[Aspychata]

Think the members who were open to sharing some horrific stories here are to provide the OP with support that shows that this does happen and to continue to move in a linear path of legal action. It's just that perhaps someone else stepped in and tried to discount the issue. And the problem is that it may only get worse as it goes on.

My school really didn't have much in the way of bullies. However, times have changed, and the chances of any child being bullied has dramatically increased just alone with social media now being used to bully and humiliate teens. Some people aren't aware of this dramatic shift in increased taunting of students.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Aspychata

If both the "denial" and the "serious consequences" arcs were neutral they would balance each other out, and I'd have stayed out of this.

But IMO both sides are far too intense (I don't think it's symmetrical, but IMO nobody gains from further discussion). I tried to tone sides both down as gently as I could, and it had no effect.
TBH if this was a typical "lawless" forum with too many unsocialized NT teenagers I'd probably blow the thread up at this point (yes, I've had some practice at this

But it's AutismForums.
I've been careful to manage the "temperature" of my posts here, and I've never regretted that.
Asking to move or curtail the "high temperature" part of this is part of that policy. I don't regret making the attempt.

Just for the record, I'm 90% confident it's bullying in this case, 80% that OP needs a lawyer, and over 50% that it will take more than a strongly-worded letter on the lawyer's letterhead to resolve the issue. It may be necessary to move schools (@Au Naturel 's suggestion)

The other 10% of bullying/friendly-teasing cannot be resolved without more data, so I'm following my own suggestion - await developments.

 

[Mary Terry]

Pull the kid from school. What backlash are you imagining?

A lot of autistic kids are more vulnerable to teasing because they lack a social understanding of it. What Progster says is correct. An NT would let it slide off their back like water off a duck. An autistic child takes it literally. The other kids are reacting to a discovered vulnerability. The teachers are insisting that an autistic child ought to behave and understand just like an NT child. The child cannot.

It is a variation of the "If only you would (fill in the blank) you wouldn't have any problems." routine. There is a reason why schools in California have separate classes for kids on the spectrum. They have special needs and special vulnerabilities. I don't know what country you are in but there may be laws that are being ignored.

Some NT kids can handle the bullying. Others cannot. NT children who are gay, have disabilities different from autism, come from ethnic backgrounds different from the bullies, and many other NT children suffer enormously from bullying.

There should be zero tolerance for bullying. The bullies should be expelled from the school. A child - any child - who is bullied should never have to leave and find another school.

 

[Mary Terry]

My answer to this problem as well. Though I've never been able to constructively explain it in terms of exporting the idea. Though I think it remains a sad reality that bullies generally only respond to force that they don't expect.

Though as an adult with lots of liability experience, I also have a keen understanding of how administrators are likely to respond to a message from the parents of a bullied student with a legal letterhead.

Amen, Judge. Legal letterhead will get their attention.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I believe the school has an obligation to step in when they know that there’s a bullying problem and it’s been brought to their attention numerous times. I’m the result of schools refusing to help the victims of bullying and choosing to blame them instead of helping just because the victim doesn’t fit in anywhere and is unimportant and insignificant to the school. My grades started to drop pretty badly my senior year because of being bullied and it took all of my energy just to make it through the day. They said that I was “lazy” but I was experiencing some pretty bad depression and suicidal thoughts. The only reason that the principal finally tried to help me about three months before the end of the school year was because he wanted to sleep with the woman that helped raise me and get on her good side. He hit on her constantly and this was a married man too! I think that he was pretty scummy for wanting to cheat on his wife and only was trying to “help” me just to get a woman to sleep with him.

 

[aspieoutlaw89]

Hi, I'm new to this site,
just want to know what peoples views are on schools refusing to deal with bullying,
my son has ASD and has been the subject of bullying in class for 2 and a half years,
thanks to a tiktok video called the Pumpkin mean,
My child gets called "Pumpkin" and "broccoli" in class almost everyday,
the school has not only failed to deal with the bullies,
but they have now resorted to down right ingnoring my son's claims,
and want him to get used to being called vegetable names,
the new head teacher, brought in to deal with the bullying
simply said" oh well kids can be cruel" "we need to get your son used to being called names"

since Sept the school have never once phoned me to tell me my son has been called names,
despite him telling me almost every day that he has been called names.

last week the school crossed the line by giving my son a 5 day suspension, for lashing out in
class after being called "broccoli" and having the teachers telling him he misheard the word.
my son totally disputes this, and I will believe my son over the teachers any day of the week,
IMO I believe the school head teacher and other staff are directly responible for my child lashing out,
yet my child gets punished for it? how on Earth is this right?

I want to pull my son out of school for his own safety and wellbeing,
but I'm affraid of ther backlash,
I would love to hear advice from other parents who have had to deal with bad school and teachers