How to reconcile male and female perspective on creepiness

[Judge]

As a Christian I am against divorce, so I won't envy that.

But the question remains: why is it that they connect for a much longer time than I am ever able to?

You aren't supposed to envy it. But it can mean going into any relationship with your eyes wide open. That it may fail no matter how much you want it to succeed.

Christians get divorced every day in my country. It happens.

https://divorce.lovetoknow.com/Divorce_Statistics_by_Religion

 

[Polchinski]

You aren't supposed to envy it. But it can mean going into any relationship with your eyes wide open. That it may fail no matter how much you want it to succeed.

But in my case, the issue is not the fear of failure, rather the fact that women won't ever consider me to begin with. Hence the question.

Christians get divorced every day in my country

I am in USA and in USA they divorce every day too. What country are you from?

In any case, just because they do it and they are Christian doesn't make it right. Matt 7:13 says few are saved but the number of Christians is far from few. Thats why I don't want to do something just because a lot of Christans do it.

I use Christian dating site, and the vast majority of women my age are divorced or with kids. And thats despite this site being Christian. I don't want that so I won't ever message those women. But then again, I wouldn't have to face this issue if only I were to find a woman 15 years ago. But I didn't, due to my Asperger. And now, in addition to being creepy for having Asperger, I am also creepy for being 43.

 

[Judge]

But in my case, the issue is not the fear of failure, rather the fact that women won't ever consider me to begin with. Hence the question.



I am in USA and in USA they divorce every day too. What country are you from?

In any case, just because they do it and they are Christian doesn't make it right. Matt 7:13 says few are saved but the number of Christians is far from few. Thats why I don't want to do something just because a lot of Christans do it.

Right and wrong. Endless conditional thinking. SMH You just don't get it. Did ever once occur to you that a lot of people get uncomfortable around those of us who constantly think and advocate only on conditional terms?
I have no comment on how you may appear to women, but if you speak to them in such a manner ..."crash and burn". -You'll fail socially. Few people will likely relate to you with such a constrained view of well, everything.

Where am I from?

 

[The Pandector]

I meant to ask how do they manage get past the communication gaps.

I want opposite sex too, but I can't get a relationship because of all those communication issues. How do thy manage to go past them, if, as you said, men and women think differently?

I only wish I had a good answer for that.

While I was recovering from a severe burnout (still am, actually) it occurred to me that a particular writing assignment might help me process. The plan was 1 1/2 - 2 pages. A young autistic man met a woman on a train, and their souls just... worked. I'm now at over 600 pages. The entire book is my examination of how an ND male and an NT female could naturally mesh for life. She was originally attracted to his intense-artist persona, while he was totally put off by her beauty, which placed her well beyond his reach. Spoiler: they're very happily married.

Though it will never see the light of day, writing the book has given me reason to focus and process. Over a year and thousands of hours later, I have concluded that the entire shebang is this world's most wonderful mystery; you might understand several points, but will never grasp the big picture.

My character wasn't looking for a mate; doctors had explained to him when diagnosed at 13, 'many autistic people are able to find suitable mates.' That brought up mental pictures of crossed eyes and buck teeth, and he had settled into a semi-comfortable semi-celibacy. Had my character been looking for a mate, this woman would not have been attracted to him. Had he been eying her, she would not have seen the deep soul that she ultimately fell in love with.

It's only a project book. What do I know? Maybe you could begin your own project book to help you work your way through it.

 

[Polchinski]

Did ever once occur to you that a lot of people get uncomfortable around those of us who constantly think and advocate only on conditional terms?

A lot of people told me I think on "black and white" terms. But you are the first person who tells me I think in "conditional" terms. Can you elaborate what it means? When I think of the word "conditional", to me it means "basing on the condition", where "condition" refers to "assumption you are making". But in this case, don't NT-s make assumptions too? In fact much of the complaint that I have about NT-s is their making assumptions. So in what way is my thinking conditional and their isn't? How do you define conditional thinking?

And yes, people did tell me that I come off as intense (except they didn't use the word "conditional" to describe it). My question though is: how do they know it if they haven't ever talked to me? Is it

a) my body language and the way I act shows the way I think?

b) The rumors spread by people I did talk to

c) The fact that most people get to know people through people, so by eliminating the first two or three connections I could have had, I eliminated the common way of expanding the social network

d) The fact that I don't recognize faces and names, so I might be thinking "this stranger doesn't like me" when actually it is one of the people I had some unpleasant conversation with

e) Other. Specify

 

[Judge]

A lot of people told me I think on "black and white" terms. But you are the first person who tells me I think in "conditional" terms. Can you elaborate what it means? When I think of the word "conditional", to me it means "basing on the condition", where "condition" refers to "assumption you are making". But in this case, don't NT-s make assumptions too? In fact much of the complaint that I have about NT-s is their making assumptions. So in what way is my thinking conditional and their isn't? How do you define conditional thinking?

And yes, people did tell me that I come off as intense (except they didn't use the word "conditional" to describe it). My question though is: how do they know it if they haven't ever talked to me? Is it

a) my body language and the way I act shows the way I think?

b) The rumors spread by people I did talk to

c) The fact that most people get to know people through people, so by eliminating the first two or three connections I could have had, I eliminated the common way of expanding the social network

d) The fact that I don't recognize faces and names, so I might be thinking "this stranger doesn't like me" when actually it is one of the people I had some unpleasant conversation with

e) Other. Specify

Black and white is just one of many conditionals. True/False, On/Off, 0/1, Yes/No, Right/Wrong, if/and/or...etc.

If you do any programming, the latter comes to mind first and foremost.

Certainly, for someone focused only on conditional reasoning is bound to appear intense even with the most relaxed social situations, to your own detriment. It's a disaster when considering human behavior which is all over the place. A matter of individual traits and behaviors not assigned with a "cookie-cutter".

Logic can be a great tool, but it isn't a means to an end. Not in any world populated by humans.

 

[Polchinski]

I only wish I had a good answer for that.

While I was recovering from a severe burnout (still am, actually) it occurred to me that a particular writing assignment might help me process. The plan was 1 1/2 - 2 pages. A young autistic man met a woman on a train, and their souls just... worked. I'm now at over 600 pages. The entire book is my examination of how an ND male and an NT female could naturally mesh for life. She was originally attracted to his intense-artist persona, while he was totally put off by her beauty, which placed her well beyond his reach. Spoiler: they're very happily married.

Though it will never see the light of day, writing the book has given me reason to focus and process. Over a year and thousands of hours later, I have concluded that the entire shebang is this world's most wonderful mystery; you might understand several points, but will never grasp the big picture.

My character wasn't looking for a mate; doctors had explained to him when diagnosed at 13, 'many autistic people are able to find suitable mates.' That brought up mental pictures of crossed eyes and buck teeth, and he had settled into a semi-comfortable semi-celibacy. Had my character been looking for a mate, this woman would not have been attracted to him. Had he been eying her, she would not have seen the deep soul that she ultimately fell in love with.

It's only a project book. What do I know? Maybe you could begin your own project book to help you work your way through it.

Is this book a true story or a fiction?

 

[The Pandector]

So are you saying you weren't a Christian back then? Or were you, and you just were unaware of it?

I was saved at 12yo. I knew cruises were often like that, I was just naïve about the extent of it among older people; I assumed I could lay on the deck and hit the jacuzzi without thinking of romance.

Maybe I can find Christian cruises the same place you found that other cruise? Did you use a website or where did you look?

My son went on the same cruise, found the package. Try the internet; I bet you'll find something under Christian Singles Cruises.

You've said in other posts, Polchinski, that the text of the Bible and the observable facts on the ground suggests that many people go by the name of Christ, but their behavior cannot be used to establish legitimate standards for Christian behavior. I'd advise you to keep that in mind when pursuing cruises.

 

[Polchinski]

Black and white is just one of many conditionals. True/False, On/Off, 0/1, Yes/No, Right/Wrong, if/and/or...etc.

As far as 0 or 1, could it be that the answer to my post number 22 on 2-nd page something along the following lines: that the correlation between neighboring statements is 0.8 rather than 1, and then if I take 5 steps, I am taking 0.8 to the 5-th power, which becomes 0.328. And thats why each of the five steps is ``apparently right" (since 0.8 is close to 1) but taken together it is ``apparently wrong" (since 0.328 is close to 0)?

By the way, contrary to how it appears, I am not making the statements about every single female on a planet. For example, I had 3 long term relationships, so my statement ``with women I never even get far enough to the first date" is not exactly true. But its mostly true and I am happy with the ``mostly". Similarly, when I say "all men say that creepiness is looks" thats not true either: the men here on this thread didn't say it. But, statistically, the tendency is there.

So, if you say something is true but to me it seems like 0.8, I won't be complaining. The time I am complaining is when I get to 0.328. But could the above demo with 5 steps be the way it happens?

So lets say that A==>B being true would mean that I assign value to it greater than 1/2, and B==>C being true would also mean that I assign value to it greater than 1/2. Then it can easily happen that A==>B is true, B==>C is true, yet A==> C is false. In other words the logic is non-transitive. Is this what is going on?

 

[Judge]

As far as 0 or 1, could it be that the answer to my post number 22 on 2-nd page something along the following lines: that the correlation between neighboring statements is 0.8 rather than 1, and then if I take 5 steps, I am taking 0.8 to the 5-th power, which becomes 0.328. And thats why each of the five steps is ``apparently right" (since 0.8 is close to 1) but taken together it is ``apparently wrong" (since 0.328 is close to 0)?

By the way, contrary to how it appears, I am not making the statements about every single female on a planet. For example, I had 3 long term relationships, so my statement ``with women I never even get far enough to the first date" is not exactly true. But its mostly true and I am happy with the ``mostly". Similarly, when I say "all men say that creepiness is looks" thats not true either: the men here on this thread didn't say it. But, statistically, the tendency is there.

So, if you say something is true but to me it seems like 0.8, I won't be complaining. The time I am complaining is when I get to 0.328. But could the above demo with 5 steps be the way it happens?

When I refer to 0/1 I mean it only in terms of binaries. Not integers. Not much of the programming I did in PHP or Java Script involved mathematical computations. Mostly conditionals that allowed for certain functions based on what browser was used.

Something that mattered back around the turn of the century as different browsers rendered different sized fonts. An especially messy affair as it impacts forms and text boxes. Just something I recall doing from a long time ago. The sort of thing that developers may not even do any more with the chrome-engine browser being so dominant.

 

[Polchinski]

When I refer to 0/1 I mean it only in terms of binaries. Not integers. Not much of the programming I did in PHP or Java Script involved mathematical computations. Mostly conditionals that allowed for certain functions based on what browser was used.

Something that mattered back around the turn of the century as different browsers rendered different sized fonts. An especially messy affair as it impacts forms and text boxes. Just something I recall doing from a long time ago. The sort of thing that developers may not even do any more with the chrome-engine browser being so dominant.

I know that originally it deals with computers. Even now I assume 0-s and 1-s is how computers operate. But since you mentioned it in the context of this thread, thats why I was thinking you were using it to draw an analogy. Hence my trying to guess as to what it might be.

Or did I misunderstand your analogy? If so, how did you mean your analogy to be?

 

[Judge]

I know that originally it deals with computers. Even now I assume 0-s and 1-s is how computers operate. But since you mentioned it in the context of this thread, thats why I was thinking you were using it to draw an analogy. Hence my trying to guess as to what it might be.

Or did I misunderstand your analogy? If so, how did you mean your analogy to be?

Only that binaries are exclusive to just ones and zeros. Just as there is only true and false. Or off and on. -Conditional circumstances.

Just an analogy in addition to what is referred to as "black and white thinking". That while there may be many things to consider in such terms, it must be acknowledged that there are so many "shades of grey" in between black and white. That not everything can be expressed in such absolute terms.

Something that I have felt from Neurotypicals that they don't appreciate such reasoning, whether technically appropriate or not.

 

[Polchinski]

I knew cruises were often like that

And on my end I don't know. Interestingly enough, my mother doesn't know it either. Because she used to take me to Green Tortoise trips back when I was around 20. But I know for a fact she didn't want me to date, since she saw me as much younger than my age. In fact, she went to those trips with me. We are from Russia. Could it be the cultural thing that she didn't know?

Although at the same time she met my dad on backpacking trips. But I don't think that was her purpose of going there. I mean, even though they started when they were single, they continued going to those trips long after they got married. In fact my parents were taking me to those trips when I was a kid. And they were not the only ones. Most people there, at least the ones that we know, became married couples, with kids, and were taking their kids there. Even though they were single when they first met.

Could it be a cultural difference between Russia and America? Like in Russia they go to university to study, in America they go to university to party. In Russia they go to those trips because they like nature, in America they go to those trips to find dates? And, speaking about university, could it be that, within American context, my going back to school at an older age means my trying to hit on much younger girls? Since thats what universities are for? And THATS WHY they treat me as creepy before I ever talked to them -- cause I was "hitting on them" by the virtue of being at the university campus?

Here is another question that I have. So back when I was 22, I was studying at the office till past midnight, and then on my way home I was going to one of those shops to buy some food and then collapse on the bed. A cashier kept trying to talk to me, and I was just giving her short answers so that I can go home and eat that food I was buying. One time she said to her male friend "I am in love with that guy", he said "who", she said "comes in here, never talks". I was wondering ever since whether she was referring to me. On the one hand they won't say things like that in front of someone, but on the other hand the word "that" refers to someone in front of you, and "comes in here never talks" describes me. I never had guts to ask her.

Then, few years later, I was similarly going to Jimmy Jones on my way home in the middle of the night. And one of the cashiers was trying to talk to me there too, and I was ingoring her for the same reason. She didn't use the L-word, but she went out of the way to try to talk to me, to the point of them actually calling her to talk to me or take my order.

Now, looking back, I feel like I was really stupid that I ignored them. I literally spent hours on dating sites. Why couldn't I just respond to those girls? I was thinking "that was my once in a lifetime luck, why did I waste it?"

But now that you mentioned that cruise thing, could it be that I wasn't nearly as lucky as I thought I was? Could it be that, instead, the whole reason why those "food stores" are open at night is so that young people can hit on the young cashiers, and those cashiers were specifically choosing late hours in order to be hit on? Of course, a grocery store and a Jimmy Jones are both very far from being a bar. But could it be that their late hours have similar purpose?

If, today, I find some place that is open late hours and actually go there with that specific goal in mind, do you think I will succeed, or is it too late since I am old?

By the way, I used to do all nighters in Dennys and IHOP, in order to study without disractions. Nobody tried to hit on me there. And I didn't see anyone else hitting on each other either. So how to tell between the places that do have that hidden agenda and the ones that don't?

 

[The Pandector]

Wasn’t there but, yeah, you probably brushed off some legitimate opportunities. But, see what I was saying about it happening when you’re not focused on it? That’s second rate advice, because people want solutions, courses of action. Still, your own experience bears it out; you’re more likely to attract women when you’re not on the prowl.

You were chilling and brushing them aside. You have more moves than you know.

 

[Polchinski]

Wasn’t there but, yeah, you probably brushed off some legitimate opportunities. But, see what I was saying about it happening when you’re not focused on it? That’s second rate advice, because people want solutions, courses of action. Still, your own experience bears it out; you’re more likely to attract women when you’re not on the prowl.

Yeah, but if you look at what I do the rest of the time, I don't approach women face to face either (I only approach them on dating sites -- and get ignored). As far as face to face goes, the only difference between the interaction back then and what happens the rest of the time is that back then I didn't obsess, the rest of the time I do. But my obsession doesn't translate into actually approaching them.

Or are you saying that they can read my signals. So, even though I weren't approaching them, I might as well had. Since they were basically seeing that I was obsessing even without my saying a word, just based on the non-verbal things I were doing?

 

[Polchinski]

@Judge I just looked up "conditional reasoning" Conditional reasoning | psychology and it explained that its when I explicitly say words "if" and "then". They gave an example of a conditional statement being "if today is Monday I will attend cooking class" and non-conditional is "today is Monday, I will attend cooking class".

So its the opposite to what I thought. I thought conditional is when they make assumptions but actually its when they avoid making assumptions since they make if/then explicit. Everyone ELSE makes assumption by simply assuming its Monday instead of saying "if its Monday".

Now this being the case, this is actually one of the main things that frustrates me with others: I am upset they make assumptions. In other words, I would have preferred if they were using conditional reasoning, and I get upset with them that they don't.

Yet you are saying their preference is the opposite. Apart from avoiding conditional reasoning (thus making assumptions) themselves, they also want me to make assumptions too? If so, why?

 

[Au Naturel]

When I google. "why do women find you creepy", I find that most males write "whoever is ugly or unattractive is deemed that way" while most females say "its not looks its behavior". Now, since the question is why do women feel certain way, then logically women are the ones who should know the answer. So if women say "its not about looks" then its not. Yet, at the same time, if there was no pattern, then men wouldn't have observed said pattern. Yet men seem to observe it. So where does it come from? In other words, the question is: if women don't "consciously" think of looks, where does look-related correlation, observed by men, come from? I would like to hear some theories, both from male and female members.

It is always behavior. One has to do something unwelcome before being considered a creep. It is a low-level fear expressed as a form of disgust.

What constitutes "unwelcome" depends on whether she is attracted to you. Attractiveness depends on looks, status, money, personality, and social skills. Different women will rank these in importance differently. A good-looking guy can come off as a creep if he acts creepy. Some women are much faster to put guys into the creep zone than others. Poor social skills will get one labeled a creep faster than anything else.

 

[Au Naturel]

The Urban Dictionary has some insights on creepiness.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Creep

 

[Prometheus]

Poor social skills will get one labeled a creep faster than anything else.

That means every autistic person is born a creep, then, logically? right, congenital creepiness.

I dont' know what that implies for autistic woman, but, let them tell their own story. I don't know their perspectives. I assume it's similar, but , I think men are more forgiving of strange behavior. When it comes to Women. For obvious reasons.

Wow this thread blew up , fast. Hot topic...cue radiohead song

 

[Shevek]

When I google. "why do women find you creepy", I find that most males write "whoever is ugly or unattractive is deemed that way" while most females say "its not looks its behavior". Now, since the question is why do women feel certain way, then logically women are the ones who should know the answer. So if women say "its not about looks" then its not. Yet, at the same time, if there was no pattern, then men wouldn't have observed said pattern. Yet men seem to observe it. So where does it come from? In other words, the question is: if women don't "consciously" think of looks, where does look-related correlation, observed by men, come from? I would like to hear some theories, both from male and female members.

I think that the essence of creepy is looking at people as possible sexual partners based only on appearance. Men and women have a basic attraction, on average, but when women enhance their attractiveness, it is hopes of getting the attention of someone she considers particularly desirable. Many others notice, and that attention is unwanted. In school, girls rebel when asked to dress modestly, blaming the boys for getting distracted even though it is hard-wired, not programming.