If someone is rude to the waitress on a date

[Gerontius]

My experience was the opposite. The "loss" that I experienced 22 years ago set me downhill and caused me to ask all those questions instead of trying. If it wasn't for that loss, I would have been a better person.

Healthier phrasing would read:
My experience of a failed connection 22 years ago could have been handled better. I have asked questions and not found the right answers, so I intend to learn from and become a kinder person.

Nobody who is kind in order to get something, is actually kind. People are not vending-machines to insert token acts of passable manners into, and get some benefit out of.

 

[Metalhead]

Being rude to a waitress can be a one way ticket to being served food with other people’s saliva in it. If you don’t want to be kind to them because that would be selfless of you, you could at least be nice to them for that selfish reason.

 

[Crossbreed]

If it is not gender-specific, then no one could accuse you of misogyny. Then it would be a matter of being anti-social vs. being dys-social. An NT woman may not be able to tell the difference, but an ND woman should be able to.

"Perfectionism" is another hindrance to relationships, too.
Or wanting a relationship strictly on your terms.

 

[Gerontius]

Being rude to a waitress can be a one way ticket to being served food with other people’s saliva in it. If you don’t want to be kind to them because that would be selfless of you, you could at least be nice to them for that selfish reason.

Being rude to the waitress--that's about the only "trading spit" you'll be doing, because by the point the waitress is defiling the food, the love interest has done got up & left.
Remember, that's as close as some people ever get to kissing a girl!

 

[VictorR]

Nobody who is kind in order to get something, is actually kind.

And for the benefit of anyone who doesn't understand what this means, I'll spell it out:

being kind in order to get something = manipulation

 

[Darkkin]

And for the benefit of anyone who doesn't understand what this means, I'll spell it out:

being kind in order to get something = manipulation

You mean my cat only uses me to get tuna...

 

[Metalhead]

You mean my cat only uses me to get tuna...

My boss is using my addiction to getting paid to get me to find out ways to make her life easier. That manipulation! But why should I complain, it keeps me from eating ramen three times a day.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Polchinski

You're responsible for your own voluntary actions. You're accountable for the results of the things to do.

Which of course means that other people are not responsible for your actions.
You may receive polite criticism if you don't act well, but you have no right to it.

Some (perhaps many) people on the spectrum can reasonably claim it's more difficult for them to manage social interactions than it is for others, but that doesn't change the nature of their personal responsibility and accountability.

Perhaps it's time for you to take these passive analyses, use them to make a plan to improve your life situation, and get to work.

"One day ..." or "Day One!" - it's your choice.

 

[Polchinski]

Healthier phrasing would read:
My experience of a failed connection 22 years ago could have been handled better. I have asked questions and not found the right answers, so I intend to learn from and become a kinder person.

Nobody who is kind in order to get something, is actually kind. People are not vending-machines to insert token acts of passable manners into, and get some benefit out of.

Well, I had a girlfriend back in 2007-2009, she was sick and, in February 2008 -- May 2008, she could barely walk. So I took care of her at that time, and my concern was actually her, not me. But you see, when I met her in October 2007, it was all selfish. I only became selfless in February 2008, because she was sick.

So maybe with other people its the same concept. You first meet people for selfish reasons, and then once you get to know them, you begin to care about them, not just yourself. And maybe the reason I am selfish is because other people avoid me (due to my supposed selfishness) so I have nothing in front of me other than myself, and thats what keeps me selfish.

Now, to counter what I just said, I had examples of other relationships where I remained selfish throughout the duration of them. What separates my relationships with those other girls from my relationship with that particular girl is that with all the other girls I was the weaker one (I had Asperger) while in case of this girl she was the weaker one (she could barely walk). So my natural sympathies are towards whoever is weaker.

One thing that might have happened is that maybe those other girls did have struggles too, but they didn't trust enough to share them with me (due to my perceived selfishness) and thats what resulted in my continuing to be selfish. Or maybe they even did share them, but relationship wasn't close enough for me to "feel it". Because when that girl first got sick, I was at the interview in Canada. So when I heard she was sick it was just an information, while my focus was an interview. But when I actually came back and actually SAW her in pain, THEN ONLY I developed empathy towards her.

So maybe what happened with the other girls is that they never let me in as close as she did, and thats why I never had an opportunity to truly empathize with them.

But, back to your reply. Here is the thing. When I switched from selfish to selfless with her, this was not a choice. Instead, it "just happened". And it happened due to external factors, not internal ones. On the other hand, if one simply "decides" to stop being selfish, then it won't work: as you and others pointed out, the selflessness would be transactional. Now, if one is ostracized, one has no other ways besides "deciding not to be selfish". So I don't see how they would accomplish their goal (outside of transactional good behavior). But if one is NOT ostracized and is given a chance, THEN one can eventually learn to be selfless just like I did.

Here is the other thing. The person who called me out on being rude to waitresses was that girl (and no I wasn't cruel to waitresses or anything like that; she called me out on not listening about the menu and asking to repeat, repeating myself as well, not syaing thank you, etc; so as you see those are Asperger traits). And no, she didn't break up with me over it. She was simply angry. So thats fair. But here is a noteworthy observation:

1) I was rude to those waitresses AFTER I became selfless with her.

2) Yet, as you see, my behavior with her was not transactional.

The reason my behavior with her didn't match my behavior with waitresses is simply because I felt bad for her but I didn't feel bad for waitresses. Well, someone on this thread mentioned that waitresses are vulnerable. I didn't know that. So that is another example of lack of social awarenness.

However, after I dated that girl, I did learn to have empathy for the vulnerable. For example, when I see flower on the road, I take it off, so that the cars don't drive over it. Once my mom had two soap holders, one had ducks face in it and the other had monkeys face on it. I sneaked them both out on my way back to school as the semester started, because I don't want then to feel all this pain from soap in their eyes. Also someone offered my mom gingerbread men, and instead of eating it I hid it, in order to save it from being eaten. I also rescued a kitten and gave it to no-kill shelter.

I did most of those things thinking of that particular girl. No, she wouldn't have done any of those. But I associated those other things with her and didn't want to hurt them because I didn't want to hurt her.

Yet, while my experience with her taught me to care about flowers, I might still not care about waitresses. Because it all depends on whom I perceive as vulnerable.

Now, I very much do want to change further, and become even less selfish. But here is the point. In the above case I became less selfish not because I decided to, but through dating that girl. So similarly if I were to date other people, that would teach me further to become less selfish. But if others avoid me, there is no way I could learn.

If anything, being punished doesn't teach me to be less selfish; it teaches me to be more selfish. Since now I become a victim. So in a situation where I COULD HAVE felt bad for the other person, I end up not feeling bad for them since I am put into a position where I get defensive and feel bad for myself.

 

[Au Naturel]

I keep reading a dating advice to break up with someone who is rude to the waitress on a date, and this makes my blood boil. Here is why. If you assume that the party that is breaking up doesn't personally know the waitress, it implies that everyone else should break up too. But, if so, that means that the person who is rude to the waitress should die single and childless.

Now, don't get me wrong: I am all for trying to change. But here is what gets me. People don't actually ask you to change. They simply leave. So if, instead of leaving, they were to say "in the future please don't be rude to the waitress", I am all for that. But they don't say that. They leave. So are they assuming the rude person will never change? If so, how is that person supposed to feel?

By the way, I can't think of any examples when I lost a date for being rude to the waitress (although I can't say it didn't happen, because a lot of people wouldn't tell their date why they lost interest, and yes I lost vast majority of the first dates, when I was lucky enough to have them). But here is the thing. I had plenty of examples of being judged "for something about me" that has nothing to do with anything "between" me and the person I am dating. And it felt damning. Because if it is something "between me and her", then the answer is find another girl who is more compatible. But if it is something "strictly about me and not about her" then its like nobody else should ever like me either so I should die single and childless.

I guess the rudeness to the waitress example is a good illustration of that. Because it has nothing to do with something that is "between the two people". Rather it is about "one" person (whoever was rude to the waitress). So the implication is that that one person would never find any other dates, or at least shouldn't. Wow. You see how damning it is!!!

Again, I am all FOR telling that person to change. But if you HONESTLY believe they can change, the logical conclusion is don't damp them. The underlying assumption behind dumping them is the idea that they can't change. How are they supposed to feel then?

If it is a character trait rather than one-time incident on a really bad day, I'd drop the person like a hot rock. If they had a horrid day and the rudeness just slipped out, that's a different matter. Nobody is perfect. (Tho an apology might be in order.) Waitressing is hard work, and depressing because of all the rude customers.

You can tell a lot about the character of a person by how they relate to the weakest members of society. That's generally the workers in the minimum wage service industry. A person who is generally rude to waitresses is simply a bad person. They would be rude to anyone else they felt empowered over. Uber drivers, janitors, farm workers, security guards, homeless people, and maybe the autistic kid at work. Rudeness to the weak is a form of bullying. And that's how that dating advice can be perfectly valid.

I do not need to try to make them change their ways. Not within my power. When they are ready to change, they will.

 

[Polchinski]

If they had a horrid day and the rudeness just slipped out, that's a different matter. Nobody is perfect. (Tho an apology might be in order.)

Apology to whom? To the waitress or to their date?

As far as the waitress, I agree, their should apologize.

But apologizing to their date makes no sense, because they didn't do anything "to" their date, they only did something to the waitress.

Now, if I could understand why apology to the date is appropriate, then I might also understand the answer to OP. Because my concern in OP was that they didn't do anything to their date, they only did it to the third party, so why should their date punish them? But now you are saying that yes, they did something to their date, after all (since they have to apologize). So if I could understand what it is they did to their date, then it would make more sense why their date would want to end it in other situations.

Waitressing is hard work, and depressing because of all the rude customers.

I didn't know this. I simply am unaware of what it is on the other end of the line. Maybe they have great time socializing with people? Or maybe they wish they had a better job? Could be either way.

I guess its my lack of social experience thats why I don't know it. If I had more social experience maybe then things like that would have been more obvious.

You can tell a lot about the character of a person by how they relate to the weakest members of society.

Judging the character is precisely what I don't like, because it basically destroys the persons worth.

As far as weakest members of society, I didn't even know they were weaker until this thread.

That's generally the workers in the minimum wage service industry.

Now that you pointed it out, I see why they are weakest. But, until you pointed it out, it just didn't occur to me.

Which goes back to why I blame it on Asperger. Since Asperger is the reason why things that are obvious to others aren't obvious to me.

A person who is generally rude to waitresses is simply a bad person.

I don't want to be a bad person. Thats the whole point.

They would be rude to anyone else they felt empowered over.

Thats the other thing I don't understand: how is the customer "empowered" over the waitress? For example, a customer is not allowed to just refuse to pay and walk off. So the waitress has "some" power.

I do not need to try to make them change their ways. Not within my power. When they are ready to change, they will.

Its good that you added "when they are ready to change, they will". Thats encouraging, as it acknowledges my agency to change: others just can't force me to.

I do have to say, though, that being treated badly has discouraged me from changing a whole lot. Because the vibes I was getting is "we don't care what you do, you are a loser anyway". Well if they don't care, why should I care.

 

[Au Naturel]

Everybody is selfish all the time. The question is the definition of self.

I see a bit of myself in every person. I even see a bit of myself in every animal. I see those people and creatures in me as well. I extend a portion of myself to every living being. The closer those beings are to me, the more they are a part of me. Hurting my dog will bring out a stronger reaction than hurting a dog across the planet. It has to be this way or all the pain throughout existence would destroy me.

If I see cruelty to another person, I feel a bit of that cruelty myself. If the person is in front of me, I feel a lot more. This is what empathy is all about. This is why "altruism" is really an extension of selfishness to the greater whole. No man is an island.

Sympathy is feeling pity because the other guy got hurt. Empathy is feeling a bit of their pain for yourself because you know how pain feels.

 

[Ella Spell]

I'm assuming you'd want people to notice or judge your kind and thoughtful behaviours when they occur. It stands to reason that the same people would notice or judge your rude behaviours too. Their empathy for the waitress would allow them to imagine how it would feel, and it would make them uncomfortable. No one wants to feel uncomfortable on a date and frankly, it isn't their job to teach social skills to a grown adult who is on a date (presumably demonstrating their best manners and trying to impress their partner.)

We subconsciously monitor people's behaviour in the environment around us, to ensure we're safe. We're taught from a young age to trust our inner voice or our gut reaction when dates feel "wrong". If my date was rude to any person on our date, whether a waitress or a car mechanic or friends and family, I'd have no problem telling them to apologise right then and there. If I didn't walk out immediately, I'd be sure not to see that person again. Yes I would tell them why.

I can't do relationships where I have to make excuses for other people's poor behaviour. I can't stay in relationships where I'm ashamed of the other person, either.

 

[Polchinski]

We're taught from a young age to trust our inner voice or our gut reaction when dates feel "wrong".

But isn't it what Asperger is all about: when everyone else has negative "gut reaction" when they are around the aspie?

I was assuming that the gut reaction is something people simply can't help. But now you are saying people are actually "taught" to trust it. But why teaching people to trust gut reaction if gut reaction is part of the problem?

For example, if you go to reply number 38 here People are smarter than they say it was mentioned that people with disabilities produce negative bad reaction, and plain unattractive people produce bad reaction as well. So teaching people to trust their instincts amounts to reinforcing all this judgement that disabled and unattractive people are going through.

 

[Metalhead]

But isn't it what Asperger is all about: when everyone else has negative "gut reaction" when they are around the aspie?

I was assuming that the gut reaction is something people simply can't help. But now you are saying people are actually "taught" to trust it. But why teaching people to trust gut reaction if gut reaction is part of the problem?

For example, if you go to reply number 38 here People are smarter than they say it was mentioned that people with disabilities produce negative bad reaction, and plain unattractive people produce bad reaction as well. So teaching people to trust their instincts amounts to reinforcing all this judgement that disabled and unattractive people are going through.

Most people on the spectrum know the difference between right and wrong and they do not use a diagnosis as an excuse for bad behavior. Of course people are going to react negatively when they witness casual acts of cruelty.

 

[Ella Spell]

People instinctively trust their gut reaction to other people. It's a survival mechanism which aims to keep us safe from predatory humans. That instinct doesn't always work, but most of the time it does.

I don't have Asperger's but the diagnosis isn't based on how other people feel when they're with you. The diagnosis is based on how people with Asperger's feel in a variety of situations from their own perspective. I don't recall seeing "be rude to people and assume it's acceptable" on the list. Sure, we all make mistakes but we're supposed to learn from them starting at a young age, and correct any behaviours which are self-injurious whether that's in a social setting or while you're home alone talking to people on the internet. It seems you are aware of this tendency to be rude, so this seems like a good opportunity for you to learn effective strategies for change.

 

[Au Naturel]

Judging the character is precisely what I don't like, because it basically destroys the persons worth.

Judgment, in this case, is an evaluation using one's own criteria. A different person judges differently. You judge character all the time. One might judge a waitress to be unworthy of politeness.

As far as weakest members of society, I didn't even know they were weaker until this thread.

I find that very difficult to believe. You are giving her orders. Her job is to serve you. Her income depends on pleasing you. A bad word from you can get her fired. The waitress has no control over you. If you walk without paying the bill, there is nothing she can do about it. She's out revenue for the work she performed.

I'm thinking you are putting up this whole thread as entertainment.

 

[Polchinski]

I don't have Asperger's but the diagnosis isn't based on how other people feel when they're with you. The diagnosis is based on how people with Asperger's feel in a variety of situations from their own perspective.

But DSM 4 criteria for Asperger mentions problems with body postures to regulate social interactions. This affects how other people feel about you.

Also, why is it so many people with Asperger have trouble making friends? That also indicates that people dislike them.

I know there are diagnoses that are more about "what a person feels themselves". Social anxiety would be a good example: people might like that person but the person gets anxious in social situations.

But Asperger is more about others not liking that person, at least thats how I understand it.

I don't recall seeing "be rude to people and assume it's acceptable" on the list.

The issue is being rude without knowing I am rude.

In the example where my ex-girlfriend called me out on being rude to the waitress, here is what happened. First, the waitress asked her to order the food. So she read her the menu, and she ordered it. Then it was my turn. So I asked the waitress to read the menu again. But my ex-girlfriend said I should have listened to it when she was reading it to her. But it didn't occur to me to listen to it, because she was speaking to her not to me. Now, I could have used logic to realize that I would have to order from this same menu, and in order to save her time I have to listen to it when she reads it to her girlfriend. But that takes a little bit of thought. I didn't make that thought. Instead I just "went with the flow", and my natural reaction is to only listen when they speak to me. So its not being rude on purpose but she thought I was rude.

Then the other example of being rude to the waitress was when I was making an order, and I was clarifying what it is I was making. So I was saying "not this but this" few times. I didn't even realize I was rude there either. I thought I was just making sure that there is no confusing. Now, when she repeated it to me, I realize that it looked weird since nobody repeats that many times. But I weren't realizing that its weird until she pointed it out.

Sure, we all make mistakes but we're supposed to learn from them starting at a young age, and correct any behaviours which are self-injurious whether that's in a social setting or while you're home alone talking to people on the internet.

"From the young age" is the key phrase here. Because my parents were very sheltering of me, due to my Asperger, so I didn't experience the way the real world works. My first experience dealing with rejection was when I left home at the age of 21. Until then I was sure that my social skills are great, I can make friends and get a girlfriend by a flip of a finger the moment I decide to, I was just choosing not to because I wanted to focus on physics. But then at the age of 21 I got a rude awakening on how people do judge me, and I couldn't come to terms with it ever since.

 

[Metalhead]

You're too old to blame your parents for this now. You're a bloody adult, we both know you are smarter than this.

 

[Polchinski]

Judgment, in this case, is an evaluation using one's own criteria. A different person judges differently. You judge character all the time. One might judge a waitress to be unworthy of politeness.

So are you basically saying that "thats why" this particular judgement is not the ultimate condemnation to single+childless life? So basically a girl that would reject me over it, would be saying that her values don't match mine, and I should find a girl with matching values (a girl who is also rude to waitresses)?

I find that very difficult to believe. You are giving her orders. Her job is to serve you.

But I pay her. And, similarly, at my own work my boss gives me orders and I get paid.

I guess the issue here is that she is on a minimal wage. But I haven't thought about it until you pointed out.

Maybe it goes down to lack of experience. Because I pretty much been either a student or a postdoc my whole life, getting paid either as a TA or as a postdoc. Thats why I simply don't know which job is better and which is worse.

Now, if a waitress told me she wanted to be in academia, then yes I would feel bad for her that she misses out on academic job and is waitress instead. But if she isn't considering academia, then I just don't have enough information or experience to know that waitress job is worse than some other jobs.

For example, which job is worse? Being a waitress, or being a librarian, or work in the post office? I honestly don't know.

A bad word from you can get her fired.

Not in my case. Due to my Asperger nobody takes me seriously.

Case in point: I had an argument with a woman who works at a gas station because she confused me with someone homeless. I was calling them and complaining about her for the next few weeks. She didn't get fired.

I had similar argument with a security guard in front of CVS. And complained about him as well. He didn't get fired either.

The waitress has no control over you. If you walk without paying the bill, there is nothing she can do about it.

I thought they could call a police?

But then again, I never tried. I just assumed thats what would happen.