If someone is rude to the waitress on a date

[Ella Spell]

I don't know Rainman. He's also a fictitious character.
I wouldn't assign him anything since I'm not a licensed psychologist.

Why do you think people who are L2/3 are nonspeaking?
That's not in the diagnostic criteria.

If they do happen to be nonspeaking, it doesn't mean they can't think or type.
You and I are having a digital conversation, not a verbal one.

Level 3: A nonverbal autistic kid I ran into on the high school yard during lunch back in good old 1996, who was rocking back and forth, making weird sounds, and had staff following him everywhere

This person was "rocking" and making sounds so you think they were L3?
I don't rock but I have very odd mannerisms and I stim 24/7 even when asleep.
I have echolalia as well, but it's not always present.
Again those aren't in the diagnostic criteria.

How do you know that person wasn't intelligent or capable of having an "intelligent conversation" online?

 

[Ella Spell]

Thats unfair too. Remember how Jesus kept the company of tax collectors and sinners? I wish people could emulate that. If anything, keeping the company of such a person means that you are tolerant and non-judgemental.

When Jesus was accused of "bad company", his response was pretty much what I was saying: "a healthy doesn't need the physician, but only the sick". In other words, "please hang around with people who act rudely in order to help them change".

I remember when Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's called the Golden Rule, and I don't believe autistic people are exempt.

 

[Darkkin]

I remember when Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's called the Golden Rule, and I don't believe autistic people are exempt.

Some people assume a tax exemption, via abdication of accountability, responsibility, and societal immunity. Must be a pain with the DMV, no wait that's the DSM, oops...to get that paperwork authorized.

 

[Ella Spell]

Ohhh! Where can I meet one? ^

 

[Darkkin]

Ohhh! Where can I meet one? ^

The Oracle of Eight Ball will know where!

 

[Polchinski]

Why do you think people who are L2/3 are nonspeaking?
That's not in the diagnostic criteria.

Here is the story as to how I got this idea.

So, back in the 1985, in Russia, my mom took me to a group for people with autism where they diagnosed me as autistic with the question mark (since they didn't have Asperger label, that wasn't the option, so they just put question mark next to autism diagnosis). Then, in 1995, in America, I was diagnosed with Asperger. Several years later (probably in 2000-s or 2010-s), I called the psychologist from that group in Russia and asked her why was I diagnosed as autistic if I knew how to speak. Her response was that they had "level system" in the diagnostic criteria that group uses, and the level I was diagnosed with actually matched what later became known as Asperger, so everything is consistent.

In any case, she then went to elaborate the level system they used. So their level system was different from the current one. For one thing, they had four levels rather than three. But, more importantly, it was going in the other direction. Level 1 was the most severe one and Level 4 was the mildest. She told me I was diagnosed with Level 3, and also that Asperger matches Level 3.

I was surprised as to why thats the case: Asperger is the mildest, so shouldn't it be Level 4? Her answer was that people with Level 3 have special interests while people with Level 4 don't. My first thought was "maybe Level 4 is something like social anxiety that is not part of the autism spectrum". But then when I read the link they had, they said that Level 4 corresponds to what is known as "high functioning autism". And then I remember one obscure website (American one, NOT theirs) that mentioned that special interests with Asperger are more pronounced than with high functioning autism. So maybe the logic of that group was to say that due to this "obscure" fact, Asperger should be Level 3 and high functioning autism Level 4.

In any case, the way she explained Levels 1 and 2 to me is that she said Level 1 is that kid I saw in high school (well, she doesn't know that kid -- it is American high school -- she only knew it from my description over the phone), while Level 2 is the Rainman. So the Rainman analogy comes from her.

Now, she haven't been talking about DSM 5 levels because during our conversation DSM 5 wasn't out yet. But, now that I know the DSM 5 levels, I can do the following logical reasoning:

Her Levels 3 and 4 would both be DSM 5 level 1

Her Level 1 would be DSM 5 level 3

So, by the method of exclusion, her Level 2 would have to be DSM 5 level 2

Since she told me that her Level 2 is Rainman, thats where I got that DSM 5 Level 2 is also Rainman.

By the way, I looked it up online, and found their classification of autism. Indeed, the "first group" is non-verbal, just like she told me. Unfortunately that link is in Russian, but you can use google translate to see what it says. Here it is: Психологическая классификация детского аутизма

If they do happen to be nonspeaking, it doesn't mean they can't think or type.
You and I are having a digital conversation, not a verbal one.

But, at least in case of Rainman, the physical ability to speak wasn't the issue. But the content of what he was saying was. So, if Rainman could type, do you think he would be able to type more intelligently?

As far as non-verbal ones, I actually remember, back in 1997, when I was talking about that autistic kid on MGH Neurology Web Forum, someone told me about nonverbal autistic who, once got a keyboard, was able to type and the first thing he typed was how frustrated he was that everyone assumed he was stupid when he wasn't.

So I guess this does happen. I was just assuming it is quite rare.

This person was "rocking" and making sounds so you think they were L3?

Again, that was based on that conversation with Russian lady who said he is L1 by Russian criteria which would logically be L3 by DSM 5 criteria.

I don't rock but I have very odd mannerisms and I stim 24/7 even when asleep.

How do your stims look like?

And how does it look like when you stim in sleep?

I have echolalia as well, but it's not always present.

So what "forces" you to repeat stuff after others? Can you describe your inner experience when that happens?

How do you know that person wasn't intelligent or capable of having an "intelligent conversation" online?

I was asking questions to the staff lady that took care of him. And she told me that he saw things "in dots and spots" (I am not sure what that means) and also that he doesn't have concept of other people, and he doesn't even have concept of numbers.

 

[Polchinski]

I remember when Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's called the Golden Rule, and I don't believe autistic people are exempt.

Speaking of that, I remember when I was doing a postdoc in Physics in India and I was discussing with one of the Physics professors my social difficulties interacting with others. So, no, he is not an expert on autism or psychology, he is a physicist. However, he told me that he read some study that shown how what is called "symmetric neurons" are not functioning well in people with autism. The function of "symmetric neurons" is for the person to experience what it is like to be on the other end of the line. So dysfunction of those neurons results in lack of ability to put oneself in the other persons shoes. This would literally make it difficult to follow the above cited Golden Rule.

But in any case, if you put my point and your point together, then Jesus' teaching would imply

1) Keep golden rule yourself
2) Still keep company of those that don't follow it

In other words

3) Put the other cheek

 

[Ella Spell]

@Polchinski

I've posted this before in another thread but I'll put it here for your reference. These are the DSM5 criteria for Levels 1-3.

Notice it doesn't mention fictitious characters like Rainman.

Deficits in verbal skills don't necessarily mean the person is non-speaking.

For example, I'm diagnosed as having very poor non-verbal communication skills at the 5th percentile. That has nothing to do with whether or not I speak. It means I have trouble reading people or their intentions by looking at them. I can't make effective inferences visually or from listening. I'm face blind which means I might forget I've met a person. I can't even tell my brother's two stepsons apart and I've known them for years.

I am dx with Mutism but that's a separate, stand-alone condition treated by Speech-Language Pathology. It doesn't mean I don't know how to speak. It means I often won't speak even if I try. It's an involuntary shutdown usually because it's too much work physically for me to create words, or I don't want the sensory overload of hearing speech.

 

[Ella Spell]

So what "forces" you to repeat stuff after others? Can you describe your inner experience when that happens?

I have no idea what causes it. I hope that doesn't sound rude, but I really don't know. I don't repeat from others. I repeat bits of music notes and sounds, animal noises, or random sounds like onomatopoeia. Sometimes I fill in any "gaps" of silence when I'm with others by making random noises. I might yawn a lot or make sound effects for sitting down and standing up. I do double-claps with my hands when I'm happy. I make fish popping sounds or click my tongue. I copy air conditioning sounds or other noises from around the house. Maybe it's part of my SPD because I'm hypersensitive to sound, so I hear every sound and they feel like an intrinsic part of my world.

Can I describe my inner experience? No. I don't know that I have an inner experience. It just happens, kind of like breathing. Not to be rude but can you describe the inner experience of breathing?

 

[Ella Spell]

How do your stims look like?

And how does it look like when you stim in sleep?

I have hundreds of stims so I can't describe them. Most are too personal anyway. I don't know what it looks like when I'm asleep because I'm asleep.

 

[Polchinski]

@Ella Spell I saw this classification before, but one thing that I noticed is that Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3 descriptions are nearly the same, except for the word "marked" being replaced with "severe", and so forth. Now, those words are subjective. So its hard to tell what they mean unless you have specific examples in mind. Hence my thinking that example of Rainman might be useful since I was not given any other examples.

Speaking of the words being subjective, I see that the way they sound to me is probably different from the way they sound to most professionals. Even though I don't have "support in place", I can predict that in a "hypothetical situation" if I did, my differences would still be apparent (due to body postures and so forth). Now, in Level 2, it says differences is apparent even with support in place. But I assume that nobody will diagnose me with Level 2, since I have Asperger and Asperger matches Level 1. So apparently their definition of "apparent" is different from mine.

 

[Ella Spell]

I don't know Rainman. I've said that before. I know the stereotype but according to other posters, the person who inspired that character wasn't even autistic.

"Support in place" can mean anything from headphones to service dogs to stim toys. It doesn't have to mean a caregiver. Also, most of us don't have "supports in place" and that's why we have these difficulties in the first place. If we all had ideal supports in place none of us would be affected by our ASD and we'd be able to blend into society. Clearly, that doesn't happen even with the best of intentions.

 

[Polchinski]

I have no idea what causes it. I hope that doesn't sound rude, but I really don't know.

I guess I was thinking that if you are doing something, you have an agency, hence you would have a reason why you do it.

For example, Donna Williams, in her book "Nobody Nowhere", said that the reason she was repeated after others is that she was hoping they would leave her alone.

In your case that doesn't sound like the case, hence I was asking what was prompting you to do it in your case.

Not to be rude but can you describe the inner experience of breathing?

Okay, that is actually a really good explanation. Thank you! Now I understand.

 

[Polchinski]

"Support in place" can mean anything from headphones to service dogs to stim toys. It doesn't have to mean a caregiver. Also, most of us don't have "supports in place" and that's why we have these difficulties in the first place. If we all had ideal supports in place none of us would be affected by our ASD and we'd be able to blend into society.

Well, if an autistic who stims would have stim toys, then they would still stim, just in a different way. So I am not sure how that would help them blend in.

But in any case, the issue in my particular situation is not stims but, instead, things like facial expression, tone of voice, etc. For example, my voice is loud and monotone. I am not sure what kind of "support" would compensate for that.

 

[Ella Spell]

She told me that he saw things "in dots and spots" (I am not sure what that means) and also that he doesn't have concept of other people, and he doesn't even have concept of numbers.

It sounds like "he" (Rainman?) was neurodivergent in some way. I have Synaesthesia meaning I see letters and numbers in specific colours. I think, classify, and retrieve information in colours or spatially. I didn't have a concept of other people having different points of view until I was about 7. I remember realising that my friend had a separate mind from mine, and that she saw different things when looking at me than what I saw when looking at her if we were face to face. I think I have Visual Snow Syndrome but I'm not sure because it's all I've ever known. I have no idea what the world looks like to other people because even if they showed me a picture, I'd see it with Visual Snow.

 

[Ella Spell]

Well, if an autistic who stims would have stim toys, then they would still stim, just in a different way. So I am not sure how that would help them blend in.

But in any case, the issue in my particular situation is not stims but, instead, things like facial expression, tone of voice, etc. For example, my voice is loud and monotone. I am not sure what kind of "support" would compensate for that.

I meant that the stim toys could help to regulate their nervous systems, so they aren't hypo- or hyper-stimulated in social situations. I didn't mean that they would blend in by the act of stimming with the item, but that (in an ideal world), the sensory regulation would help improve their ability to cope or function in social settings. I use stim toys to prevent meltdowns or recover from them. It's not that I would blend in by walking around with Play-Doh, but that I would be less anxious overall.

I don't know what types of support help with expressions and tone of voice either, except for Occupational Therapy and perhaps Speech-Language Pathology. Some people might benefit from hearing aids or retraining of the Vagus nerve.

Imagine having strokes on top of autism, and not being able to control your facial muscles. Imagine needing a wheelchair or walker at a young age. All of this compounded my difficulties in social settings but to get back to your thread topic, none of it means I'm at liberty to be rude or to act rudely on dates. My partner is here right now with me, although he's fallen asleep. He knows all my disabilities or diagnoses (whatever you want to call them), and that doesn't mean I get to be rude to him or to others in his company even though he's NT. I don't have a free pass for any hurtful behaviour even though I don't operate on the same wavelength as his, and he doesn't always understand the "inner world" of what I experience.

 

[Polchinski]

It sounds like "he" (Rainman?) was neurodivergent in some way.

The one who saw things in dots and spots was the kid in high school, not Rainman.

Alright, lets put names to all this (hopefully mods are okay with this). So my high school psychologist is Yelena. The kid in high school is Jonathan. The staff lady who took care of him is Flora.

Flora told me that Jonathan has no concept of other people and sees things in dots and spots.

Yelena told me that Jonathan is Level 1 and Rainman is Level 2.

I have Synaesthesia meaning I see letters and numbers in specific colours. I think, classify, and retrieve information in colours or spatially.

I have some of it too. Except that I don't picture a specific colors, but more like "mental colors", that are more abstract.

Sometimes I caught myself that when I think of a topic I picture a place, even though that place often has nothing to do with the topic. At times I can draw a connection, but at other times I don't.

An example where there was a connection is a fiction story I read about prison. That story described prison windows "pointing northwest". Well, the windows of my appartment in Russia were also pointing northwest. So I pictured most of that story taking place in that appartment. But then in that story they had to go into a separate room at some point. But, weirdly enough, I didn't picture the room in that appartment, instead I pictured a room in the appartment here in America.

Another example is that if I think of some physics concept while walking somewhere, I would remember the location where I walked and picture that particular location when I thought of it.

But then there are other examples where I filled up the location that seemingly has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. For example, I was discussing race relations, and I pictured a road that was going from the pond back in Moscow. But, in Moscow, I wasn't really thinking of that stuff. I only thought of it few years after coming to America. So I have no idea why I pictured that.

I also picture numbers being arranged in a certain way. When I was little I was living in the appartment building, on the 3-rd floor. And a flight of stairs took 10 steps. So I pictured numbers from 1 to 10 going in one direction, from 10 to 20 in the opposite direction, from 20 to 30 in the former direction, from 30 to 40 in the opposite direction. But since I never had to go above 40 on those stairs, after making the turn at 40, I would go in the straight line till 100. Then I would turn right and go from 100 to 200 right, then I will go in the former direction from 100 to 1000, then at 1000 I will go in the opposite direction and then never make any more turns again. As far as negative numbers, if I go from 10 to 0, I would have to turn left to go to the negative numbers and then I would just keep going without any more turns.

I didn't have a concept of other people having different points of view until I was about 7. I remember realising that my friend had a separate mind from mine, and that she saw different things when looking at me than what I saw when looking at her if we were face to face.

Yeah, but Jonathan was 15, not 7.

I think I have Visual Snow Syndrome

What is it?

but I'm not sure because it's all I've ever known. I have no idea what the world looks like to other people because even if they showed me a picture, I'd see it with Visual Snow.

If you mean thinking in pictures, I do that too.

I was actually assuming it was normal to think in pictures, I assumed NT-s did the same.

But that was just my assumption. Was I wrong? Are NT-s somehow think of things without pictures?

Oh, here is something that occurred to me. If you pick any topic. Any topic at all. I will picture it SOMEHOW. Like if you talk about politics, I will picture those people located somewhere. I won't picture their faces, and I won't picture their location in any concrete terms at all, not anything you could draw. But I would picture it in "mental colors".

Is this what you mean by visual syndrome?

Are NT-s able to think of those things without picturing them? Not even involuntarily?

 

[Ella Spell]

I relate 100% to what you said about picturing places which aren't related to the idea. I do the exact same thing. I have consistent "pictures" for things which don't even match the thing. I picture the wrong houses, or even random scenes from movies / real life, with specific stimuli. I still remember what I pictured or what I was thinking about when I learned things from childhood. Those pictures or flashbacks were never related to the topic but they stuck in my head somehow.

When I try to remember events like "high school graduation", I don't see the graduation. I see or remember what I was thinking about for a split second during graduation, even though it was unrelated at the time. That becomes my representation of graduation instead of the cap and gown.

Despite this ^ I don't think in pictures. I can't picture things. It's called Aphantasia. If you tell me to picture my dog, I can tell you exactly what he looks like in words but I can't form a visual image in my head. I'll "picture" something abstract and unrelated like I said above. I might "picture" my mother since she loves my dog. But then I'm not really picturing my mother either because when I think of her I picture something else, and none of it is literal. It's all just colours and swirls and 3D depth or spatial sense. That's why I'm face blind. Somehow it all makes sense to me by associations and having a good memory. Beyond that, my thinking is only in words. There's always a narrative going in my head which I assume is normal but apparently it's not. I read and write in my sleep which is almost unheard of. I wrote my Master's thesis in a dream and watched the words appear in front of my sleeping eyes, like I was typing them on a page. I woke up and transcribed them to paper.

Visual Snow Syndrome means that everything looks slightly pixellated or fuzzy. I remember looking at the little pixels all my life and thinking they were similar to the dots on an old TV screen. I don't always focus on them but they're always there. I have no way of knowing what's normal in terms of vision or any other part of my psychology. I didn't even know I had synaesthesia until I learned about it in University. Then, I was like "What? Doesn't everyone else do that?"

 

[Ella Spell]

Is "dots and spots" literal, or a metaphor for seeing information in discrete pieces?

 

[Polchinski]

I meant that the stim toys could help to regulate their nervous systems, so they aren't hypo- or hyper-stimulated in social situations. I didn't mean that they would blend in by the act of stimming with the item, but that (in an ideal world), the sensory regulation would help improve their ability to cope or function in social settings. I use stim toys to prevent meltdowns or recover from them. It's not that I would blend in by walking around with Play-Doh, but that I would be less anxious overall.

So how does it work? Is it

a) You play with them in public, but playing looks less weird to others than the other things that would happen if you didn't

or

b) You play with them in private, but playing with them have after-effect that lasts for some length of time. So, as long as you go to your room "periodically" to play with them, you don't have to play with them in public

or

c) Something else. Please explain

I don't know what types of support help with expressions and tone of voice either, except for Occupational Therapy and perhaps Speech-Language Pathology. Some people might benefit from hearing aids or retraining of the Vagus nerve.

Are there non-expensive ways to get those types of help? I just don't have a lot of money.

Imagine having strokes on top of autism, and not being able to control your facial muscles. Imagine needing a wheelchair or walker at a young age. All of this compounded my difficulties in social settings

Are you still on a wheelchair?

but to get back to your thread topic, none of it means I'm at liberty to be rude or to act rudely on dates. My partner is here right now with me, although he's fallen asleep.

So how were you able to get a boyfriend despite being Level 2? And I can't get a girlfriend, even though I was assuming I was Level 1?

I guess to be fair, yes I had girlfriends in the past. But they were few and far between. My first lasting relationship was 2003--2004, my second lasting relationship was 2007--2009, and the third one was 2013--2014. However the third one was long distance, I only met her twice despite it lasting 2 years, since I was in India. The first two were in person. In case of the first one I saw her a couple of times a week (she lived 2 hours away) while with the second one we were in the same town and saw each other every day.

I had other relationships, but they were short lived (at most a few months) and they were all long distance. With most of those relationships we never met in person, and with the few where we did meet, only a few times.

But what about you? Is your relationship history better than mine?