If someone is rude to the waitress on a date

[Darkkin]

@Ella Spell

You bring up a very insightful point on shame. People are often judged by the company they keep. Childish or obnoxious behaviour of one person toward another more vulnerable person (e.g. waitress) will draw ire from other observers. The person that didn't speak up is just as much at fault in the situation as the person who did the insulting. The awful behaviour reflects onto the other person. Guilty by association. No one wants to be lumped in with the guy who basically kicked a puppy (figurative for people who are rude to service industry people). The people we associate with can influence our own behaviour because of this. Reasonably speaking who wants to be cast as second fiddle in a melodrama demeaning waitstaff?

More concisely, who wouldn't be upset by a member of their group hasseling waitstaff?

(Trigger warning from this point on...An explanation of what no social skills can actually embody. It isn't a joke. The cases, thankfully are very rare, but are extreme. Mentions of trauma, deprivation, and abuse.)

Spoiler: The Reality of No Social Skills

One demonstration is usually enough to give people a very clear message and it is not an ASD diagnosis. That is nothing but an excuse and basically an insult to the ASD community to imply that Asperger's is a free pass to being mean and rude to everyone.

Using ASD as a justification for:

I just don't have social skills so I am rude to everybody.

That is literally no better than walking up to each person one meets on the street and jabbing them with a hat pin and walking off. No explanation, no apology, and wondering why no one wants anything to do with them. Moreover, the jabber probably wonders why they are being booked for assult. Folks that is not a deficit of social cues. That is not autism. That is complete abdication of any sort of personal responsibility.

This type of behaviour even as a hypothetical concept is never okay or acceptable. It is demeaning and dehumanizing in the extreme. To use a neurotype as an excuse or justification for such behaviour is even worse. It bastardizes an already marginalized group. The community is stigmaized enough as is and this sort of thinking only adds fuel to the 'cure' it fire. If you folks see it, I hope you have the courage to call it out.

I will be the first to admit, people like that are an embarassment to know and/or be around. That type of behaviour impacts everyone except the one doling out the vitrol. To them, it's fine. A common term for it is toxic because it poisons everyone who comes in contact with it.

In the context of reality such behaviour can be reported as disorderly conduct which can result in a psych hold or a stint in the local jail. It can lead to involuntary commitment or having a guardian or a conservator appointed. No social skills mean that any interaction with in any give community is probably not advisable. If a person has not social skills can be illustrated by:

What feral child means?

feral children, also called wild children, children who, through either accident or deliberate isolation, have grown up with limited human contact. Jan 13, 2023 (Encyclopedia Britannica)

This is the literal embodiment of NO social skills. The cases like this are rare results of extreme trauma and abuse. Children who have absolutely no control over their circumstances. Look up the cases and read them. Understand the fact of what an excuse for poor behaviour really consists of...in this case extreme psychological trauma and deprivation.

Also keep in mind other members of the autistic community who are deeper into the spectrum than many of us on this forum. There are not many represented here because of the greater cognitive impact ASD 2 and ASD 3 can, and do, have. These are members of the most vulnerable populations in society and they are just as much a part of the autism community as we are. There are people who have real, profound social and mental deficits. 35.2% of the autistic population in the US according to the CDC. 20 - 40% are non-verbal.

Context matters. My youngest nephew is 3 and currently a non-verbal autistic, but he is not mean or rude. He is open hearted, joyous, and kind. He doesn't talk, but he loves people. His joy is absolutely contagious. And folks, he isn't rude to waitresses, he flirts with them. He's three and he understands kindness, love, and empathy.

He is three and he understands how to interact with people. His autism doesn't hinder his interactions because he isn't defined by his neurotype. He is just an awesome kid.

 

[Au Naturel]

But I pay her.

If you walk, you don't pay her. If you don't tip, you don't pay her. She is utterly dependent on your good graces.

Due to my Asperger nobody takes me seriously.

Pleading incompetence isn't a valid argument. She does not know that. You do not have a sign on your chest that says, "Nobody will listen to my complaint." Waitresses are entirely dependent on the kindness of strangers. If a manager hears she was rude to a customer, she's gone.

If you walked, she would have to contact the manager and explain everything to him and then he'd decide whether to call the police. She lacks that authority. You're still gone and getting you arrested (extremely unlikely) won't get her a tip.

You should look into your personal appearance and behavior if two different people at different locations assumed you were homeless. Nobody chases away a potential customer without some sort of rationale about it. Asking why something happened and not repeating the situation is more useful than complaining about it.

Gas station attendants and security guards are not in the same situation as a waitress. They have low-paid, dangerous jobs that can subject them to robbery and assault. If something goes down, they are the first suspects. Life is not kind to them.

 

[Darkkin]

In psychological terms of failing to acknowledge the emotions of others, and unrelated to lack of cognitive deficits...

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a life-long pattern of exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, a diminished ability or unwillingness to empathize with others' feelings, and interpersonally exploitative behavior. Narcissistic personality disorder is one of the sub-types of the broader category known as personality disorders.[1][2] It is often comorbid with other mental disorders and associated with significant functional impairment and psychosocial disability.[1]

One of these things is not the other, but they can and do occur comorbidly. 5% of the US population meet the criteria for clinical narcissim. More than double the rate of the autistic population at 2.1%. So statistically speaking is the rude behaviour is more likely to be rooted in NPD, a personality disorder, not a neurological disorder like ASD.

An interesting fact: 21.08% of the US prison population has diagnosed NPD.

Personality disorders are often a result of trauma, chaotic and/or dysfunctional home life, and other environmental factors. Often this starts very early in life. It is not a condition present at birth like autism and ADHD are being hardwired into the nervous system. Personality disorders function more like computer software. The coding can be addressed with treatment.

While NPD is developed over time, psychopathy is present at birth. Something that is scary and fascinating. The interview of the author of Confessions of a Sociopath by M.E. Thomas. This particular part of the interview focuses on empathy or what the lack of it looks like. This is what social tone deafness is. Zero empathy. These people cannot hear or sense the notes that make up emotion. These people are empty.

Accurate diagnosis can only be made by a licensed professional, but keep in mind that an accurate diagnosis is essential in effectively addressing any form of illness be it physical or mental.

e.g.

An accurate ASD diagnosis, showed my family that the migraines I had been plagued with since childhood were directly linked to my sensory issues. Address the sensory triggers, and eliminate the headaches for the most part. It also helped pin point my EDS, which drastically improved my cardiac treatments. It was an odd factoid that was key...nearly 20% of NDers have EDS to some degree. A much higher occurrence of a previously ultra rare disease than the regular population. It is strongly suspected there is a genetic component involved. Given the ND history in my family (both sides), I believe it.

 

[Polchinski]

Asking why something happened and not repeating the situation is more useful than complaining about it.

I DID ask why it happened. In fact, thats how I complained.

As far as the lady at the gas station, I was walking into the station and she stood outside the door. Now, she is supposed to be inside as she is a cashier. So she purposely went outside to ask me to stop me. And then we had the following conversation:

Her: May I help you
Me: Do I look suspicious
Her: Are you going to buy something
Me: Why would you think that I wouldn't
Her: Do you have money
Me: Why do you think I don't have money, do I look homeless?
Her: Last time you were here you didn't have money
Me: Did I steal something?
Her: Did I say you stole anything? Don't put the words into my mouth
Me: Then what happened when I didn't have money?
Her: It doesn't matter. What are you going to buy?
Me: Again, please tell me when I didn't have money
Her: You always come here and don't have money
Me: Thats not the case: I know I come here almost every day and I DO have money. Are you confusing me with someone?
Her: I know you
Me: What is my name?
Her: I don't know, but I seen you around
Me: If you know me, how come you think I keep coming here without money when its not the case?
Her: It doesn't matter. As long as you are going to buy something, you can come in
Me: I want to get the facts straight as to what happened.
Her: Either you come in or you leave
Me: But I can't just be accused of something I am not guilty of. I need to get the facts right
Her: Come in or leave
Me: Can't we talk about it for a minute
Her: All right. Leave
Me: Why do I have to leave if I haven't done anything?
Her: I told you to leave
Me: But I haven't done anything
A man came in: I heard she asked you to leave. You have to leave
Me: What is it she done that I have to leave
The man: She told you to leave
Me: But why? What did I do
The man: Please leave

So I left.

Then later I looked up the gas station's phone number and made a phone call. A man picked up the phone, and it was *different* man from the one I just talked about. So he didn't know what happened, he wasn't there. I described the situation to him, and he simply explained to me that they have a lot of homeless people hanging around so they are trying to keep them away, and sometimes they make mistakes. Then I told him I am not homeless. So he apologized. But I could tell he only apologized in order to get me to stop talking about it. I pointed out to him that he can't be apologizing on her behalf because he wasn't even there. So I still want him to talk to her to find out why she did this. He kept insisting the issue is closed because HE apologized, and I am allowed to continue to use the gas station. I wasn't buying it.

So then I came to that gas station to ask that question again. But then it turned out that the man that was a cashier was the same man I talked on the phone to. And he just repeated that the issue is closed because HE apologized. I then asked him to speak to the manager. He asked me "why?" I said for the same reason I talked to him about before. He said that I shouldn't, because HE apologized. Well, again, his apology doesn't count since he isn't her. Anyway, after I pushed the issue he told me the time when the manager is around. So I came at that time, but the manager couldn't do much since they keep video recording for just 2 weeks and it was more than 2 weeks.

Then I came to the gas station yet another time, and this time there was a lady, different from the one who chased me out (the lady that chased me out was older arabic one, and this was a young black lady) So the black lady said it was discrimination and she would talk to her. So I was glad that she would. Then I came to the gas station again when I saw the black lady there, and I asked her had she talked to her? She said "about what"? Then I told her about what, and she said she did. I am not sure whether I can believe her. Because from her first response it sounded like she forgotten the issue altogether, which makes me think she probably lied when she told me she talked to her.

Then I came there yet another time, and saw that man (who "apologized") along with older lady (who chased me out). So I asked that question again. The man repeated that he apologized and the older lady visibly shut her mouth. I then asked her to answer. After she kept refusing to answer she finally said there are so many people, easy to confuse. But what about the fact that she told me she knows me??? So when I pushed further, she said "you weren't buying anything, you were just standing in front of the door talking to everybody". So THEN I finally understood what it was. They didn't accuse me of stealing (see the exchange at the top) but they accused me of begging. Well, I wasn't begging either. As a matter of fact, I wasn't standing there at all. I was walking from the place I teach at there directly, no stopping. So when I told that, she said she didn't want to talk about it. No apologies no nothing. They were both telling me that if I want to buy stuff I can but I should stop talking about this issue.

 

[Polchinski]

As far as the CVS, the security guard in front of the door looked like a teenager and he was smiling. So it almost felt like he was playing a game with me. In any case, he told me that they walked me out of that store three weeks ago (that would probably be September given the time of our interaction) and they also had an order back in July not to let me in. Now, you know how I have a good memory for things like that. So if they were to walk me out, I would have remembered it. I know for a fact they didn't: this was the first time I ever heard they had any issue with me at all.

What I do remember that happened prior to that, is that there was some homeless man whom they walked out because he was taking off labels. I asked them why was he taking off labels, and I was told to steal things. At first I didn't understand why would taking off labels relate to stealing but then few minutes later I realized it is because the labels would beep if he takes them out the door. In any case, one of my theories is that maybe they said "don't let him back in" (in reference to that guy) and someone thought that "him" refers to me since I was the one standing there asking questions? But that is just my theory: they never told me that it was due to this incident.

The other, more plausible, theory is that it could have been just about anyone else stealing at just about any other time whom they confused with me.

Now, what that security guard kept telling me is that its me, and I kept telling me that its not. Then the other thing he kept telling me is that its not his decision, there was an order not to let me in. My response was please call the manager. But he was refusing to call a manager. He was just standing there with a big smile telling me that I shouldn't come in. Eventually some older lady happened to walk by, and said she was one of the managers, and told me it was a mistake and I should come in and do my purchase. I then asked her to check the record to see what happened. She told me that everything is fine and I should go to the store and buy whatever I want to buy. When I was insisting she checks the record she just got rude and was telling me either you buy something or leave. So I bought something.

Then I got the son of the pastor at my church (that happened to be literally across the street from that CVS) to talk to another lady who is also one of the managers (a younger one). She said it was misunderstanding, and took photo of me to make sure that it doesn't happen again. But then it happened again, with that same person. So she took yet another photo.

Then when it happened again, she actually talked to him. And he again said "they asked him not to let me in". She said "who is they", he said "the manager" (with a big smile on the face). She said she is the manager and asked which one. He refused to answer and just said he was told not to let me in. She said they confused me with someone. He kept insisting they didn't. Then she simply said she orders him to let me in. He said okay. Then she asked him to apologize. He wouldn't.

After she asked him to apologize a few times and he wouldn't, I lost a temper and said I lied and actually it was me, I tore out the labels and stole stuff and intend to do it again because this store deserves to be robbed. Then she told me "get out of my store". Then I told her I didn't mean it. But she again said "get out of my store". When I pushed the issue that I didn't mean it and I didn't steal anything, I was just upset, she finally let me in, but she told me not to talk to anyone about those things just do my purchase and leave.

Then I overheard her telling some people about someone who steals things. So I asked her "are you referring to me or are you referring to someone else". She said she isn't answering any questions, I should just do my purchase and leave. I told her I don't want false information to be spread about me. She just insisted that I do my purchase and leave.

Then I got my pastor to talk to them (before I got the son to talk and now I got pastor himself to talk). He told me that the issue was the way I dress and he said that customers complained because they felt uncomfortable due to how I dressed sloppily, and also that I talked in a loud voice. He said he used to work in a security and he knows that when customers complain they have to ask the person to leave evne if the person isn't stealing anything just to make customers feel safe.

I then asked him "what about them asking me to leave 3 weeks prior which from my perspective never happened". He said "we have three different storiers about it so lets not talk about it". So he never answered this factual question. He just said it doesn't matter, what matters is I have to dress nicely and speak quietly. And then he got someone else at church give me used clotes.

Then I came to CVS again, and this time that young lady stood in front of the door. I was going to ask her about "three different stories". But she told me that I am fine because the pastor talked to them. I still tried to ask her about facts. But her only response was that I can go ahead and use the store but I should stop arguing with them.

 

[Polchinski]

Being rude like that says a lot about people, what kind person they are. It's telling. So if you have to tell someone "in the future don't be rude to the waitress", it doesn't really change anything.

If it is "only" that phrase, then you are right. But if you elaborate as suggested below, then it might serve some purpose. In particular, what one could say is this:

"I seen you being rude to the waitress. I believe it reveals a bigger picture about your attitude. But I know you can change, we all have different areas where we could grow. Would you like to work with me on your social skills? We will start with the incident with the waitress, and then we will work further and improve your interaction in other areas too. It would be for your benefit. First, I don't want those issues to later show themselves in our relationship. And secondly it would help you with other things too, whether keeping your friends or keeping a job, etc. But then again, I don't want to be telling you what to do, so its ultimately up to you. If you are not comfortable with this kind of offer of help, I apologize. But in this case I am afraid we wouldn't be able to date. So its your call"

Then you can get that persons response and go from there.

Now I know that the above, recited verbatim, would probably generate a "no" (if that person is not me of course). But we can start from that idea and then think of how to modify it. Perhaps find opportune time, and so forth. But at least this is the direction to think in, instead of just giving up.

 

[Polchinski]

Yes, but the thing is, when people are on a date they are not looking for a project.

But learning those "signs", including how the person treats a waitress, sounds like a psychology project. At least that was my reaction to that paper that I read.

Someone who gives them a good impression, a good first impression.

Judging people by first impression is also unfair. I read that it takes 30 seconds to make first impression. It is unfair to assume that the way the person was that particular 30 seconds is the way they would be the rest of their life. And even if its not 30 seconds but a day. Still unfair. People can have bad days.

And when you are on a date you should focus on the date, a waitress behaving badly is a detail in that setting, you shouldn't spend time on it or make a big deal about it.

Then maybe we were talking about different things. I was thinking of rudeness more in terms of "how" you say things (do you smile? Do you say please and thank you?) But you are more focusing on "what" you say (aka start an argument).

So maybe clarifying what magnitude of rudeness those articles are referring to, might help.

 

[Polchinski]

@Darkkin you seem to be saying that "no social skills" is a separate diagnosis and that even severe non-verbal autistics don't have those symptoms? But the phrasing "no social skills" implies it is about social skills. And lack of social skills "is" autism? You also said "no social skills" people are violent, but violence has nothing to do with lack of social skills. So I am confused about what you are saying.

​

 

[Hypnalis]

@Polchinski

The behavior you describe above, at the Gas Station and the CVS, is, as the saying goes, "asking for trouble".

It's also very easy to avoid.

ND's can have a kind of "blindness" to social situations, so perhaps you need pointers. But you're clearly intelligent enough to deal with such situations in a more NT-friendly way if you are prepared to solicit and follow advice.

Pushing back (with arguments or internal thoughts like "I have a right to behave as I wish as long as it's legal") simply ensures that your future will look just like your past.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Blaming shoddy behaviour on one's ASD is a relinquishment of personal accountability and responsibility. It is also a sign of emotional immaturity.

I agree wholeheartedly. Abdication of ones agency to allow oneself to behave cruelly is merely being self indulgent, not ASD. I think many of us are behind the 8 ball when it comes to boundaries and agency, and some here have little of either. That does not excuse being rude or mean.

It alarms me that ANYBODY out for a nice meal, especially with a date, would treat staff poorly. Even on dates where I was pretty sure I did not want another with the woman, my impulse was to give her a good time because I figured that being known to be a decent date and somebody having a nice friend may be predisposed to think of me as a match. That happened once with the kindest rejection I received where she suggested I connect with a woman who ended up being my first relationship. Almost like women comparing notes about potential dates.

 

[Tom]

Getting people to change, in general, is one of the most difficult things to accomplish. This goes for anyone, not just people on the spectrum.

As an analogy I can compare dating with looking at apartments or houses to rent or own. If you walk in and quickly see water damage, you know that is a serious issue and can be extremely difficult and or expensive to repair. Some times it can not be fixed. Most people want something they can move into easily and comfortably not a fix-er-upper requiring work and resources right off the bat.

 

[Polchinski]

You bring up a very insightful point on shame. People are often judged by the company they keep.

Thats unfair too. Remember how Jesus kept the company of tax collectors and sinners? I wish people could emulate that. If anything, keeping the company of such a person means that you are tolerant and non-judgemental.

When Jesus was accused of "bad company", his response was pretty much what I was saying: "a healthy doesn't need the physician, but only the sick". In other words, "please hang around with people who act rudely in order to help them change".

 

[Metalhead]

Thats unfair too. Remember how Jesus kept the company of tax collectors and sinners? I wish people could emulate that. If anything, keeping the company of such a person means that you are tolerant and non-judgemental.

When Jesus was accused of that, his response was pretty much what you are saying: "a healthy doesn't need the physician, but only the sick". In other words, "please hang around with people who act rudely in order to help them change".

You have got to be kidding at this point, right?

 

[Polchinski]

You have got to be kidding at this point, right?

I made a typo. When I said "what you are saying" I meant to say "what I am saying". I just editted it.

 

[Ella Spell]

But DSM 4 criteria for Asperger mentions problems with body postures to regulate social interactions. This affects how other people feel about you.

Also, why is it so many people with Asperger have trouble making friends? That also indicates that people dislike them.

I know there are diagnoses that are more about "what a person feels themselves". Social anxiety would be a good example: people might like that person but the person gets anxious in social situations.

But Asperger is more about others not liking that person, at least thats how I understand it.



The issue is being rude without knowing I am rude.

In the example where my ex-girlfriend called me out on being rude to the waitress, here is what happened. First, the waitress asked her to order the food. So she read her the menu, and she ordered it. Then it was my turn. So I asked the waitress to read the menu again. But my ex-girlfriend said I should have listened to it when she was reading it to her. But it didn't occur to me to listen to it, because she was speaking to her not to me. Now, I could have used logic to realize that I would have to order from this same menu, and in order to save her time I have to listen to it when she reads it to her girlfriend. But that takes a little bit of thought. I didn't make that thought. Instead I just "went with the flow", and my natural reaction is to only listen when they speak to me. So its not being rude on purpose but she thought I was rude.

Then the other example of being rude to the waitress was when I was making an order, and I was clarifying what it is I was making. So I was saying "not this but this" few times. I didn't even realize I was rude there either. I thought I was just making sure that there is no confusing. Now, when she repeated it to me, I realize that it looked weird since nobody repeats that many times. But I weren't realizing that its weird until she pointed it out.



"From the young age" is the key phrase here. Because my parents were very sheltering of me, due to my Asperger, so I didn't experience the way the real world works. My first experience dealing with rejection was when I left home at the age of 21. Until then I was sure that my social skills are great, I can make friends and get a girlfriend by a flip of a finger the moment I decide to, I was just choosing not to because I wanted to focus on physics. But then at the age of 21 I got a rude awakening on how people do judge me, and I couldn't come to terms with it ever since.

I don't have Asperger's but I am diagnosed with Level 2 Autism as well as GAD, Panic Disorder, Complex Trauma, Mutism, Alexithymia, Face Blindness, Sensory Processing Disorder, Agoraphobia, and a slew of other social disabilities which make me less than comfortable in public. On top of these I've had two strokes which caused a "blunting" of emotions in my cerebellum. None of that gives me licence to be rude to people or to tolerate and justify rudeness from others.

 

[Polchinski]

I don't have Asperger's but I am diagnosed with Level 2 Autism...

That is surprising because, based on the way you communicate, you don't sound that bad. I made a default assumption that everyone on this board are Level 1. The way I understand it is:

Level 1: People like myself and most others on this board

Level 2: Rainman

Level 3: A nonverbal autistic kid I ran into on the high school yard during lunch back in good old 1996, who was rocking back and forth, making weird sounds, and had staff following him everywhere

Am I mistaking in how I understand those levels?

 

[Ella Spell]

I don't sound that bad?

What bad?

Levels have nothing to do with IQ.

How are my sensory-social issues supposed to "sound" online, exactly?

 

[Polchinski]

I don't sound that bad?

What bad?

Levels have nothing to do with IQ.

How are my sensory-social issues supposed to "sound" online, exactly?

I was assuming Rainman was Level 2, and you can't have an intelligent conversation with Rainman.

Or was I mistaken in thinking he was Level 2? Would you assign him Level 3?

 

[Darkkin]

Rainman is a fictionalized stereotype based on a man with Savant Syndrome by the name of Kim Peak, who died in 2009. He was never diagnosed as an autistic.

Want to assign fictional characters an ASD diagnosis, roll for initiative...seems just as reasonable as Rainmam logic, right?

 

[Polchinski]

Rainman is a fictionalized stereotype based on a man with Savant Syndrome by the name of Kim Peak, who died in 2009. He was never diagnosed as an autistic.

Even though Rainman was inspired by Kim Peak, he was not "exactly" like Kim Peak, and so Rainman probably would be diagnosed as autistic.

So, if there was a patient very similar to Rainman, what level would he be assigned?