Bullying

[Jordy]

Childhood teasing and bullying is another instinctive behavior. You can see it quite clearly in other animals. I don't think there is a social mammal out there that doesn't have a hierarchical dominance structure.

Acknowledging the existence of hierarchical dominance structures can actually be controversial these days. Some people will throw a tantrum if your burst their delusional ideological bubble by talking about these things.

 

[Au Naturel]

This was the first time that I stood up to a bully. Sort of. In first year high school. One of the kids in my class told me that I was going to do his maths homework for him or he was going to beat the crap out of me and gave me his school books.

I didn't stand up to him at the time but on my way home I realised that no matter what I did I was going to get picked on and beaten up anyway. Nothing would ever change that, and if it was going to happen any way then there was no point in me being someone else's (b word). I walked past the back of the Fish and Chip shop and dropped all of his books in the dumpster.

The next morning at school he asked me where his homework was and I told him I threw it in the bin. Instead of beating the crap out of me he told the teacher and we both got sent to see the headmaster. I got the cane across my hands a few times for destruction of school property but I took it with a smile on my face, it was worth it. And the bullying got a little less after that.

Standing up to a bully is an option for some of us. If you can, you should. You will feel better about yourself. Bullies get off by exercising power over a person. They can hurt a victim at will, making them feel strong. They think of themself as a predator, their victim is their prey, and they like to play with their food rather than eat it. Take that away - even if you get hurt in the process - and they look for an easier target.

Standing up to a bully is not an option for everyone. Bullies usually pick the weak, the friendless, the fearful, and the timid. Internet bullies may not even be identifiable. If you are fortunate to have the capacity to stand up to one, it just means they misjudged.

 

[Jordy]

If it's ok to bully because "animals do it" then why do we find it unacceptable to beat eachother to death?

I wouldn't be so sure about that being a universal rule for everyone.

 

[Au Naturel]

Bullying is any act that is intended to cause distress to a person.

Calling someone a vegetable is quite clearly intended to cause someone distress.

You can try to rehabilitate bare face bullying if you like @Au Naturel. But I don't think it's going to persuade anyone.

One child calls another broccoli. The child on the receiving end then has many choices as how to react. Since the word broccoli is not a threat to life and limb, violence is probably a bad choice. There is no obligation to be emotionally hurt by this. Probably the best reaction is to laugh it off and get on with life. Autistic kids don't always understand this and NT kids usually do. Autistic children often need extra help along the way. Some need more help than others.

The teacher should probably admonish the name caller not to call people names. And that is as far as that will go. The world is full of name-callers, and whether you believe it or not, most of them do not intend to harm anyone. If name-calling draws a powerful emotional response, you allow the name-caller to control you. That's a bad thing.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words will never hurt me. Probably better as an attitude to hold inside than to recite aloud, but I heard that one as the proper response to name-calling and teasing.

As an adult, this turns into:

"...between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl

Instincts that evolved in small packs of hunter-gatherers are not necessarily well adapted to modern high-density populations, but they still exist and shape our lives in ways that are both good and bad. The instincts themselves are neither good nor bad; they just are. Like weather. You gotta live with them and try to modify them with learned behaviors.

Tribalism, the division of the world into "us and them" instead of "we," is a perfect example of an instinct we can't get rid of, even though it threatens our very existence.

 

[Suzanne]

.I am not a parent, but I was once a child lol and so will offer my suggestions.

Unfortunately, the harsh truth is, that you need to teach your child to use words over physical violence as violence is always going to get met out with that kind of discipline.

As an example: When they call him a vegetable. He could respond like: oh, couldn't you call me (his favourite meal). I don't like vegetables or oh, wow, thanks for calling me that; they are my favourite. Something like that.

In truth, helping him to run away from that environment is not going to help when he is an adult. I talk from experience.

Bullies bully because they get away with it. So, with all crimes, the victim is the one who has to learn how to live in this cruel world.

If your son has a device, get him to video the bullying and if that includes the teacher, then so be it. And, if needs must, then threaten to go viral with the video.

But, initially, as a parent, you need to help your son to stand tall to those bullies.

 

[Duna]

Just because something isn't worth reacting too doesn't mean it's easy to ignore. Just because you are a robot who makes all autistic people look bad doesn't mean everyone is, or that we are worse/worth less than because of it.

That's exactly the reaction that grants a bully a field day!

Childhood teasing and bullying is another instinctive behavior. You can see it quite clearly in other animals. I don't think there is a social mammal out there that doesn't have a hierarchical dominance structure. Teasing and bullying and how you respond to it are how it sorts out.

Because of this.
And you can't expect "bullies" to change their behavior while "victims" have the luxury to simply stay the way they are. That's discriminatory.

I thought we were supposed to be more evolved than animals?

Humans are animals. More evolved, maybe. But not ncessarily in a good way.

 

[Duna]

Unfortunately, the harsh truth is, that you need to teach your child to use words over physical violence as violence is always going to get met out with that kind of discipline.

As an example: When they call him a vegetable. He could respond like: oh, couldn't you call me (his favourite meal). I don't like vegetables or oh, wow, thanks for calling me that; they are my favourite. Something like that.

As someone who has a kid had advanced language skills let me tell you something: You can't beat someone verbally who lacks the intellect to understand what you're saying. If you want others to get the message, you will have to speak their language. Some.people simply don't understand verbal cues, and what they will see is someone who is trying to be smarter than them.
Then, whatever response you give, it must be done with conviction. And that's where the tricky part lies (as someone who was always bullied three days before becoming friends with the bullies let me tell you that most will laugh at the vegetable-answer as long as the body language isn't the right one)

But, initially, as a parent, you need to help your son to stand tall to those bullies.

 

[MildredHubble]

In my experience there's three types of bully. There's the opportunist, the crowd follower, and the pathological bully.

The first two are often quite easy to deal with when you learn how. The pathological bully unfortunately, not so easy.

I've reduced the first two many times to puddles on the floor. But the third type, even if you win the battle you loose the war. To be clear, "winning the battle" can be as simple as ignoring them, besting them verbally or avoiding them entirely.

The pathological bully has one imperative, destroy the target at any cost. No matter how smart you are they will continue their campaign.

There's quite a bit of survivorship bias in the responses that basically say "I did 'A', so you do 'A' problem solved, worked for me." There's nothing wrong with teaching someone to respond to bullying in a smart way. But if you think it works in all cases then it's likely you haven't encountered a pathological bully.

If you sincerely believe in your logic then I have a simple challenge for you. Don't worry, I'm sure a superlative surviver such as yourself will have no issues as it's basically a "Do 'A' because person 'Q' did so, and they are now 'P'."

So here's the challenge. Become the richest person in the world. Elon Musk did it, so you can too. It's very simple, and so too is Elon Musk coincidentally. So this should be very simple for you.

Achieve that, then you will have demonstrated that a specific example applies universally to every person, and every situation. I will have no option other than to accept the premise that it's "the victims that need to change, not the bullies."

Now I'm going to be generous and give you two weeks to become the richest person in the world. Starting at the point I post this. Remember, all you need to do is exactly what Elon Musk did. You have it all mapped out for you so it shouldn't take long.

 

[Outdated]

You can't beat someone verbally who lacks the intellect to understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately sometimes the only answer is violence. Something I didn't really understand until I was an adult, and simple violence is not enough, you have to humiliate, taunt and belittle while you're at it.

That's the game the bully plays and the only way to tackle them is to take away their power, their sense of self esteem. Beating them up in a quiet alley achieves nothing, making them cry in front of their mates destroys them.

 

[Duna]

Unfortunately sometimes the only answer is violence. Something I didn't really understand until I was an adult, and simple violence is not enough, you have to humiliate, taunt and belittle while you're at it.

I had the fortune to learn it from day one, when I was moved to another country and had to learn the language first. So I was a real target. I didn't even understand what names they were calling me. So defending myself verbally wasn't an option (it still isn't), and that's when I learned to do exactly what you write: they are disturbing you like a fly, so swat them away, if that doesn't help, stomp on them until they are quiet forever.

 

[MildredHubble]

Unfortunately sometimes the only answer is violence. Something I didn't really understand until I was an adult, and simple violence is not enough, you have to humiliate, taunt and belittle while you're at it.

That's the game the bully plays and the only way to tackle them is to take away their power, their sense of self esteem. Beating them up in a quiet alley achieves nothing, making them cry in front of their mates destroys them.

Sadly, very true. Some will only stop when you show them you can psychologically destroy them. It's an ugly game that the bully started. If you ignore that fact, then it all seems so simple. Just ignore them, you will all become friends, and all hold hands, skipping off into the sunset.

 

[Shamar]

I have to side with MildredHubble on this. I was never subjected to the classic "Give me your lunch money or I will beat the crap out of you" bullying. However, I WAS subjected to a constant barrage of practical jokes intended to humiliate me, books knocked out of my hands in the hallway, teasing, insults, and rude comments. Apparent friendship was invariably betrayed, usually to the amusement of others. If I was told some girl liked me (especially a really attractive one), I had to operate on the assumption (base on multiple previous experience) that I was being set up. One result is that I never dated in high school. Another is the possibility of missed romantic opportunities. Because of this I was often accused of being gay.

All this seems to have instilled both a need for friendship, and a deep distrust of it. To this day I cannot say I wver actually had a real friend. Every friend I ever had led to public embarrassment or being cheated. At best there were some who didn't participate. Au Natural may not classify this as bullying. but I do. Not just bullying by a few individuals, but a form of societal bullying, hurting and humiliating a person for the sake of group entertainment.

It was only when I got away from that environment and in college I came to realize that I was different. Really unable to interact socially, anthrophobic, emotionally crippled, and unable to understand what emotions I had. And only 40 years after that I was diagnosed with autism.

 

[Jordy]

Au Natural may not classify this as bullying. but I do. Not just bullying by a few individuals, but a form of societal bullying, hurting and humiliating a person for the sake of group entertainment.

I interpreted au naturals response more as practical advice for what to do in a world that is not going to change. Its obvious that bullies are at fault and not their victim, but that doesn't help much when we don't have the tools to socially engineering our society into one that doesn't have bullies. If you are autistic and an easy target you can either do your best to not be an easy target anymore, or try to change how you emotionally responds to bullies. What options other than changing yourself do you realistically have? I guess the kid in question could transfer to a different school. And he can also transfer to a different college, and than a different job, leave the retirement home?

 

[MildredHubble]

I interpreted au naturals response more as practical advice for what to do in a world that is not going to change. Its obvious that bullies are at fault and not their victim, but that doesn't help much when we don't have the tools to socially engineering our society into one that doesn't have bullies. If you are autistic and an easy target you can either do your best to not be an easy target anymore, or try to change how you emotionally responds to bullies. What options other than changing yourself do you realistically have? I guess the kid in question could transfer to a different school. And he can also transfer to a different college, and than a different job, leave the retirement home?

In much the same way we don't in civilized society accept racism, homophobia etc. We shouldn't tolerate bullying.

It's like having a leak in your roof, you can throw a bucket under there and call it a day, but you haven't solved the problem until you deal with it at the source.

I have experienced very similar bullying to @Shamar . It's all very well to give victims tools or skills that help them cope. But if the bully's intent is to keep ratcheting up the pressure until it overwhelms your defenses it's really just a bucket under a leaky roof that will stay that way until you deal with the problem.

I did very well one day when I was eleven years old with some bullies. I wasn't able to catch my school bus that day due to not having a pass that my mother refused to pay for. So I tried to get on the bus and was kicked off. So I walked home and was instructed to catch a normal service bus to my school 6 miles away.

When I arrived at the stop near to my school I got off the bus stressed that I would be in trouble for being late. I saw two young men on a bike approaching me, who began to harass me. I did as people advised and ignored them. They then started getting physical when I didn't respond. But I didn't rise to it.

Then as I approached the road opposite my school they blocked my path. I knew I couldn't outrun a bike. I tried to walk around them, but they moved in my way again. Then they began to move and I finally thought it was over. They circled back. One of them punched me viciously in the face, bursting my cheek open in two places due to the heavy sovereign ring he was wearing. I was bleeding heavily and still had about half a mile to walk to the school building. I had concussion and I was in quite a lot of shock.

So there you are. Keeping quiet and not rising to it works great. Oh actually wait. No. That's total utter self indulgent crap!

 

[Au Naturel]

In much the same way we don't in civilized society accept racism, homophobia etc. We shouldn't tolerate bullying.

It's like having a leak in your roof, you can throw a bucket under there and call it a day, but you haven't solved the problem until you deal with it at the source.

I have experienced very similar bullying to @Shamar . It's all very well to give victims tools or skills that help them cope. But if the bully's intent is to keep ratcheting up the pressure until it overwhelms your defenses it's really just a bucket under a leaky roof that will stay that way until you deal with the problem.

I did very well one day when I was eleven years old with some bullies. I wasn't able to catch my school bus that day due to not having a pass that my mother refused to pay for. So I tried to get on the bus and was kicked off. So I walked home and was instructed to catch a normal service bus to my school 6 miles away.

When I arrived at the stop near to my school I got off the bus stressed that I would be in trouble for being late. I saw two young men on a bike approaching me, who began to harass me. I did as people advised and ignored them. They then started getting physical when I didn't respond. But I didn't rise to it.

Then as I approached the road opposite my school they blocked my path. I knew I couldn't outrun a bike. I tried to walk around them, but they moved in my way again. Then they began to move and I finally thought it was over. They circled back. One of them punched me viciously in the face, bursting my cheek open in two places due to the heavy sovereign ring he was wearing. I was bleeding heavily and still had about half a mile to walk to the school building. I had concussion and I was in quite a lot of shock.

So there you are. Keeping quiet and not rising to it works great. Oh actually wait. No. That's total utter self indulgent crap!

Once again, the OP was all about someone being called vegetable names and how that resulted in violent retaliation. Most kids would not react violently if they were called a vegetable. There are better ways to respond and they can be learned. The violence is a sign that something much deeper is going on that needs to be addressed.

And nobody said anything about ignoring anything. Find anywhere that I said that one should ignore a bully.

 

[MildredHubble]

Once again, the OP was all about someone being called vegetable names and how that resulted in violent retaliation. Most kids would not react violently if they were called a vegetable. There are better ways to respond and they can be learned. The violence is a sign that something much deeper is going on that needs to be addressed.

And nobody said anything about ignoring anything. Find anywhere that I said that one should ignore a bully.

They would if they were at their wits end. You've watched movies right? You've seen scenarios where a kid is taunted and teased and eventually flips at their tormentor? It's not a novel concept.

"Change how you feel about it" is essentially recommending you turn the other cheek. I did that, and got it torn open for my trouble. When I didn't respond to the teasing, they simply upped the ante. I ended up in hospital and with a scar on my face. Because I "didn't let it bother me".

And as far as I recall, OP said their son had "lashed out" at the bully. That does not denote violence necessarily.

Oh and the example I used from my own past was not the only incident like that. Once I walked away from a bully and ended up in intensive care. The only brief moment of lucidity I had of the main bulk of the ordeal was hearing that they were planning to drill a hole in my head.

When I started to come round, I had a fully grown adult doctor screaming in my face because I had failed to stay still during the MRI. He "lost it" because a 13-14 year old child with a head injury squirmed about because the straps they were restrained with had cut the circulation off to their arms. And of course he didn't realise that I was fully lucid at the time. So, you, know, why not abuse his patient.

But sure yes, the perpetrators shouldn't be taken to task for what they do. What a load of self defeating nonsense.

You deal with the problem at the source. It's not rocket science.

 

[Jonn]

I think the point is that one can learn not to take offense. One can choose how to react to a comment. How you react controls your mental state. Nobody is being punished for anything, just learning a better way to react. This life skill is equally important regardless of what level of intervention the school does or if it does nothing at all.

There will always be someone calling you a name. How you react will determine how the interaction will affect you.

The problem is, sometimes ppl are so confused by their emotions and life, in general, they often "can't see the forest for the trees".

Ppl aren't born with coping skills. They develop over time through life experience.
The problem is, some are more damaged than others or are simply more sensitive.
It isn't a "one fix for all situations".

 

[MildredHubble]

The problem is, sometimes ppl are so confused by their emotions and life, in general, they often "can't see the forest for the trees".

Ppl aren't born with coping skills. They develop over time through life experience.
The problem is, some are more damaged than others or are simply more sensitive.
It isn't a "one fix for all situations".

Very true. Also OPs child may be at a disadvantage when it comes to learning coping skills. That makes them vulnerable, which in turn makes the bullying all the more reprehensible.

It's like social norms/interactions are like a game of chess. We agree to the same rules, have the same equivalent pieces and know we can only make legal moves.

Now, if two people sit down to this game of "chess" (the bully and the victim) and they each make their moves. If the bully decides to pick up the board and smack the victim in the face, all the "legal chess moves" in the world can't defend against that. What's worse is that the bully is then tacitly rewarded for such masterful "chess skills" when the victim complains or "lashes out".

In my previous examples, I made "all the right moves" and ended up seriously injured.

 

[Jonn]

Standing up to a bully is an option for some of us. If you can, you should. You will feel better about yourself. Bullies get off by exercising power over a person. They can hurt a victim at will, making them feel strong. They think of themself as a predator, their victim is their prey, and they like to play with their food rather than eat it. Take that away - even if you get hurt in the process - and they look for an easier target.

Standing up to a bully is not an option for everyone. Bullies usually pick the weak, the friendless, the fearful, and the timid. Internet bullies may not even be identifiable. If you are fortunate to have the capacity to stand up to one, it just means they misjudged.

Firstly, online trolls run away from me, presumable because they realise they have met their match and can't hook me emotionally.

Bullies and trolls embrace their base primitive impulses.
To use the Triune Theory, they are more influenced by their "Reptilian Brain" rather than their prefrontal cortex (the rational part of the brain).
This is often due to the age of the person because the "thinking part of the brain" develops/matures at a later stage than the more "unevolved" instinctual component.
(The male brain generally matures at age 25.)

In older ppl, there may be some psychopathology involved that restricts actions involving integrity and fair-mindedness. (Think in terms of narcissism, sociopathy and psychopathy.)

Blame the evolutionary process.
I do.

 

[MildredHubble]

Firstly, online trolls run away from me, presumable because they realise they have met their match and can't hook me emotionally.

Bullies and trolls embrace their base primitive impulses.
To use the Triune Theory, they are more influenced by their "Reptilian Brain" rather than their prefrontal cortex (the rational part of the brain).
This is often due to the age of the person because the "thinking part of the brain" develops/matures at a later stage than the more "unevolved" instinctual component.
(The male brain generally matures at age 25.)

In older ppl, there may be some psychopathology involved that restricts actions involving integrity and fair-mindedness. (Think in terms of narcissism, sociopathy and psychopathy.)

Blame the evolutionary process.
I do.

I have found that some trolls run from me too. They can't seem to process that all I perceive them as is some dumb schmuck somewhere on the internet. They aren't important and neither is their opinion.

Quite often their "taunts" are no more than desperate appeals to emotion. This happened recently with Elon Musk fans on YouTube comments. Their attacks were as about as sophisticated as a 6 year old! One of them retorted to my comment about Elon Musk being a con man, with "You've achieved nothing!". To which I responded "You know nothing about my achievements."

What followed were a series of increasingly desperate attacks on my achievements and who I am and when that didn't work they just wrote "In case you didn't get the memo Joke's on you!" So I asked them to elaborate.

Needless to say, they couldn't.

So after a while I just thanked them for one of the most comically amusing evenings I have had in a long time.

The thing is though, if I was a young kid (as they might have been) I could see how you could become emotionally invested in their taunts.

So definitely, experience helps deal with these things. But you aren't born an adult with sophisticated executive control. So my response now is probably very different from what it could have been 25 years ago.