Does Asperger "have" to be ASD1?

[Luca]

And I don't read other threads. I just read my own threads. So how would I know what happened in another thread? Which is why I was asking all those questions.



Because if someone says something to me and I have no idea what they are saying, then I want to ask questions for clarification. If someone talks to me about complete strangers and expects me to follow it, then it is confusing. If it is confusing then I ask lots of questions.



I use caps for emphasize. I have no reason to attack someone whom I don't even known.

Although now I began to feel like attacking you not because of anything that happened back then but because you are accusing me of something I have zero involvement in.

First she dragged me into a conversation about a stranger whom I don't even know, and then I am being told as if I was the one who started drama with that stranger, whom I don't know.

How would you feel if I were to drag you into a drama between me and my mom's friend, and then accuse you of taking sides -- or, worse, actually starting that drama -- when you don't even know either one of us? Thats how I feel.

Why do you feel like she dragged you into a conversation?

 

[Crossbreed]

One can have normal to high IQ and still not be able to tie their shoes due to other neurological deficits. That is why IQ is no longer a sole consideration in DSM-5.

My daughter has a lower IQ than her brother, but exhibits a higher executive function in many ways.

 

[Polchinski]

Why do you feel like she dragged you into a conversation?

On p.2, she first brought up "fake claiming" on post number 25, and then she first mentioned your name on post number 28.

If you look at post number 25, the thing that she quoted from me was not about anything of that nature. I talked about ASD in general. But then she quoted my general discussion about ASD and brought fake claiming.

I still didn't know she talked about either you or her friend even at that point. I was plain confused. But then when I started asking her questions, she mentioned your name, along with her friend.

If you follow the thread further, you will see I was repeatedly asking her whether it is relevant to something more general (see, for example, post number 36, among others).

So what happened was that I was trying to talk about general conversation but she kept bringing up you and your friend.

As far as distinction between you and your friend, like I said, I don't know either of you, so I had to ask about both of you before I could even begin to make the distinction.

But the point is: she brought up that topic when I was trying to talk about totally different topic.

 

[Polchinski]

My daughter has a lower IQ than her brother, but exhibits a higher executive function in many ways.

Didn't you say her mental age is only 18 months?

 

[Polchinski]

Kids grow up. It is a famous story.

But Asperger worked with them in 1944, and then the war ended in 1945. So they didn't have time to grow up that quick. Hence, they were too young to contribute to war efforts.

 

[Au Naturel]

I use caps for emphasize. I have no reason to attack someone whom I don't even known.

Internet caps is considered yelling. Italics or bold are for emphasis. Bolding is more emphatic. Generally, you only want to bold intermittent words and phrases because too much bolding also comes across as yelling.

That's an internet etiquette thing.

 

[Crossbreed]

Didn't you say her mental age is only 18 months?

Yes, that is what her IQ test says. (Both age equivalencies given above are functions of their IQ scores.)

When she was 12, she used to bite my arm when she was agitated, just like any other 18mo with 12yo jaws. I could not defend myself and get her to release her bite as I would with an age-appropriate adolescent, so I slapped her thigh just to get her to cry and release me from her bite. Whenever she would move to bite me again, I had my hand ready to slap her thigh again and she backed down. She considered the likely consequences, a trait of executive function. (Unfortunately, she still bit her teachers without such reserve...)

Whenever her brother, on the other hand, stumbled and glanced off of a fixed object, he would blame said object for "attacking" him rather than acknowledging that him stumbling caused the injury. There were/are many more situations, but that is a ready example. Not recognizing causation/consequences in order to learn from your mistakes is evidence of executive dysfunction.

 

[Au Naturel]

But Asperger worked with them in 1944, and then the war ended in 1945. So they didn't have time to grow up that quick. Hence, they were too young to contribute to war efforts.

I don't think any kids Asperger worked with had a chance to be anything unless they left the facility before Asperger was kicked out and sent to the front. The Nazis didn't like him and put their own people in charge.

 

[Judge]

Has anyone noticed that this is an issue formally addressed by the CDC? I have no interest in arguing it one way or another, but this may shed some light on this issue. This may be as good as it gets relative to the question posed.

Where any thoughts of subjectively interpreting a past diagnosis prior to the DSM-V beyond ASD level 1 may require further investigation in specifying the following conditions as listed below:

"Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose symptoms do not otherwise meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder, should be evaluated for social (pragmatic) communication disorder."

Specify if:

-With or without accompanying intellectual impairment with or without accompanying language impairment
-Associated with a known medical or genetic condition or environmental factor
-(Coding note: Use additional code to identify the associated medical or genetic condition.)
-Associated with another neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder
-(Coding note: Use add'l code to identify the associated neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder.
-With catatonia (refer to the criteria for catatonia associated with another mental disorder)
-(Coding note: Use additional code 293.89 catatonia associated with autism spectrum disorder to indicate the presence of the comorbid catatonia.)

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

 

[Crossbreed]

But Asperger worked with them in 1944, and then the war ended in 1945. So they didn't have time to grow up that quick. Hence, they were too young to contribute to war efforts.

In searching for the supporting articles, I could only find articles that compared Asperger to Oskar Schindler that were later rescinded. Dr. Tony Attwood, on the other hand, has come out in his defense.

I can see how he would be a polarizing figure and the continued use of his name would be unsettling.

 

[Polchinski]

I don't think any kids Asperger worked with had a chance to be anything unless they left the facility before Asperger was kicked out and sent to the front.

But @Crossbreed said they DID in fact work, in post number 68. So how did that happen?

The Nazis didn't like him and put their own people in charge.

But I thought Asperger WAS one of "their own", which is the reason why he is under such a controversy.

So what happened to those kids after he was sent away? Did the psychiatrists that came to replace him send his patients to be killed, or did his patients survive?

 

[Polchinski]

Colloquially, 1.0 < 1.x < 2.0 . It represents the gray area between ASD1 & 2.

So do they ever put 1.2 or 1.3? That would actually make a lot more sense. Do they put things like 0.7 as well?

 

[Crossbreed]

But Asperger worked with them in 1944, and then the war ended in 1945. So they didn't have time to grow up that quick. Hence, they were too young to contribute to war efforts.

Here is the story that I was referring to (from 11:20-13:30)...

A history of autism: my conversations with the pioneers, Adam Feinstein

He may speak more of it later in the video.

 

[Crossbreed]

So do they ever put 1.2 or 1.3? That would actually make a lot more sense. Do they put things like 0.7 as well?

No, 1.x is colloquial. Actual diagnosis is only 1, 2 or 3, but people do not always fit in such neatly-defined categories, so there is rounding in such situations.

(That dilemma is also seen at 2.x when determining whether a legal guardian is warranted or not.)

 

[Polchinski]

No, 1.x is colloquial. Actual diagnosis is only 1, 2 or 3, but people do not always fit in such neatly-defined categories, so there is rounding in such situations.

(That dilemma is also seen at 2.x when determining whether a legal guardian is warranted or not.)

Do they actually put letter x there, or is it just you putting it there?

 

[Crossbreed]

Do they actually put letter x there, or is it just you putting it there?

No, just a 1, a 2 or a 3. I and others are just putting it there for the sake of conversation.
Colloquial means informal or unofficial.

If Joe's diagnosis could go either way ASD1 or ASD2 depending on the therapist, we (in the peanut gallery*) might refer to him as ASD1.5 or ASD1.x . It is a casual way of saying that someone is on the line in terms of severity between 1 & 2. His official diagnosis will still be a solid 1 or 2.

*Even his therapist might admit to such uncertainty.

 

[Polchinski]

No, just a 1, a 2 or a 3. I and others are just putting it there for the sake of conversation.
Colloquial means informal or unofficial.

If Joe's diagnosis could go either way ASD1 or ASD2 depending on the therapist, we (in the peanut gallery*) might refer to him as ASD1.5 or ASD1.x . It is a casual way of saying that someone is on the line in terms of severity between 1 & 2. His official diagnosis will still be a solid 1 or 2.

*Even his therapist might admit to such uncertainty.

I have an idea for DSM 6. It would be better if they could put 1.3 or 2.7 or 0.8

 

[Crossbreed]

I have an idea for DSM 6. It would be better if they could put 1.3 or 2.7 or 0.8

It is very subjective and probably too subjective to define tenths of severity levels.

Gifted people without autism usually have developmental disparities with NTs due to their common (for-them) trait of asynchronous development. In that setting, it is considered a trade-off, not a disorder.

 

[Polchinski]

It is very subjective and probably too subjective to define tenths of severity levels.

Gifted people without autism usually have developmental disparities with NTs due to their common (for-them) trait of asynchronous development. In that setting, it is considered a trade-off, not a disorder.

Then what about intermediate option. Like you can have

ASD 1- roughly ASD 0.7
ASD 1 (self explanatory)
ASD 1+ roughly ASD 1.3
ASD 2- roughly ASD 1.7
ASD 2 (self explanatory)
ASD 2+ roughly ASD 2.3
ASD 3- roughly ASD 2.7
ASD 3 (self explanatory)
ASD 3+ roughly ASD 3.3

 

[Progster]

Asperger was milder than autism.

Usually, yes. The main difference under the DSM IV was that no matter what your actual functioning level, those with a significant speech delay would receive a diagnosis of Autism, but those with no speech delay would receive a diagnosis of Asperger's.

This meant in practice that a person with Asperger's might be quite severely affected, have a lot of issues with communication, need a lot of support, not be able to find a job or a relationship, have difficulties at school and not gain qualifications. I have a family member who is like that, he is an adult and although he lives alone he needs a lot of support. There was also another member here a while back who was in a similar position (he got banned) and I think had his father acting as guardian. And yet he was diagnosed with Asperger's, not autism.

There also used to be HFA - high functioning autism. People with this were often very similar to those with Asperger's, except they had a speech delay as kids. Temple Grandin is an example of this.

Now, under the DSM 5, one's level is assessed according to how much support you need. So my family member, and the other member here that I mentioned above, would most likely receive a diagnosis of ASD2, that person who was in assisted living and had a guardian is probably closer to ASD3.

Of course, comorbids play a big role in this. People with ASD2 and 3 usually have comorbid diagnoses such as dyspraxia, dyscalculia, anxiety disorders, depression, dyslexia. Those with ASD3 often have severe developmental delays. Comorbids can have a way of exacerbating the ASD, meaning that they find it harder to cope and have greater difficulties in social communication and executive functioning.

I was diagnosed with moderate Asperger's, which I guess means that at the time, I required a moderate level of support. I don't know whether that means ASD1 or 2, but since, at the time, I wasn't coping and needed a lot of support, it might have been ASD2. If I were to be assessed now, I would more likely ben diagnosed with ASD1 because I no longer need so much support. Or, they might look at my life history, and decide on ASD2, I really don't know. It's entirely subjective.

I've noticed, having been on ASD forums like this one for a while, that quite a few older adults who are diagnosed in adulthood, receive an ASD2 diagnosis. I think that this is because although they may have coping/masking skills, they still struggle to cope more, burn out and crash and are more likely to have other issues such as anxiety or depression. They then get a diagnosis after seeking help. Those older adults who are ASD1 may come across as quirky or odd, have some anxiety issues but otherwise generally cope so although they may be aware of being on the spectrum, but don't necesarily seek help and may not be diagnosed. Of course, these are general tendencies, each case is different.