From a neurotypical's perspective

[Boogs]

Agreed.

Black and white thinking is erroneous thinking.

Especially when there is still such a lot of confusion even among both auties and professional experts, how the heck someone who hasn't experienced it, and knows even less about it, could not have an even worse understanding is beyond me. Everyone seems to have a slightly different interpretation.

 

[Jonn]

Especially when there is still such a lot of confusion even among both auties and professional experts, how the heck someone who hasn't experienced it, and knows even less about it, could not have an even worse understanding is beyond me. Everyone seems to have a slightly different interpretation.

Agreed.

 

[Outsider]

Thank you for this information Tiffany Kate.
I was conerned a bit when I read about the Level 3 areas as some people live alone and have to be responsible for themselves and I didn't wish more than I what I was measured at. Some time out it is what I thought and try and forget and move on.
I think this the second time I seen a mention of rocking etc in Level 3 diagnosing. Perhasps they both use the same source.

Moving on
I have read some conversation in this thread about eye contact.
Now the ADOS reads quite strange don't look at the examiner too much or then you score highly in at least 1 lol.

In NYC, US, where I live, ASP 3 live in facilities designed for people with various conditions such as autism, severe form of Down Syndrome, etc. When these patients go outside they are being accompanied by counselors. I don't know if all states and cities have the same policy regarding the wellbeing of these individuals.

 

[Outsider]

How do you separate neurological from mental, when mentality is based on a neurological substrate?
What you are most likely seeing are the abilities of a fraction of ASD's to be able to mimic social signalling of various forms.

Not necessarily. One may have two or three very extreme recognised conditions, another may have six or eight milder one's, and both may not have the same individual conditions, and yet both be in the same ASD group. I don't think the current system of diagnosis has much to do with the individual conditions that can put a person in the autistic spectrum, but rather to do with the outcome of having one or more of a class of neurological condition.
I don't think of autism as a condition really, but rather a class of symptom caused by a class of varying and variable neurological/developmental conditions.

You're making too much out of the different groups, 1, 2 and 3, imho. I think these are far more focussed on diagnosing who needs appropriate therapy and what sort of therapy (and support), not on specific symptoms in themselves.
The type, number and severity of symptoms can provide an almost infinite range of possibilities (try throwing 6 20-sided dice and see how many combinations of results you can get) - these don't just slot into one of three categories, we're people like you, and infinitely variable like you, the categories are medical devices to provide the best levels of care to the most needy in an environment of insufficient resources - in other words they are a way of making something incredibly complex into a simpler form to allow an attempt at fair distribution of services to those most in need (just like with almost every other malady, but more complex and less well understood and early efforts rarely hit the nail on the head in medicine).

Recently I have read several articles depicting latest research on the functioning of brains of people diagnosed with various conditions. The scientists were studying MRI pictures of brains of selected groups of people. They concluded that there are no pronounced differences between the NT and autistic brains. Apparently, the autistic brains function the same way their NT counterparts do. Currently there are no other metrics that would allow to distinguish these types of brain.

In sharp contrast, MRI photos of brains of people diagnosed with Tourette Syndrome show a marked difference from NT brains.

From logical standpoint, if the autistic brain is undamaged then the autistic neurological system is responsible for certain autism characteristics.

As far as I know, distinctions between Levels 1, 2 and 3 are based on results of autistic tests. I don’t know if the analysis of neurological symptoms plays a role in autism diagnostics. I hope it doesn’t because neurological symptoms pertaining to autism are not unique, a lot of other conditions have the same symptoms, which could lead to a very messy diagnostic.

It appears that currently there is only one autism therapy available, which is ABA. It has a spotty record and is universally disliked. I wish there were alternatives to ABA but don’t see any.

The level of care for different categories of autistic individuals depends on politics, at least in US. Even within US they are different from state to state without universally accepted rules and regulations. Probably, the situation is different in European countries with Federal systems of governance.

There are no clear differentiations between Levels 1, 2 and 3; you’re right about that. But I deal with the terminology that was handed to the public to show that autistic people diverge from one another just like NTs. These Levels are simplifications of complex situation, but at the moment there are no competing systems of autism classifications.

 

[Rachie]

My take on the last few posts. I read and learn on here. I have another co condition which is the bearer of bad news for sure, nothing positive to be said about it. Many with this disorder are not capable of looking after themselves and truly many will indeed pass away far too young. At times you may have no clue what is going on.
I will show you here this video by Louis Therroux of a hospital with such patients. This is true I myself passed through this hospital and it got more heated at times.
Louis Theroux - Talking to Anorexia

I have more 2s than I wanted in my autism report, for I never examined it close enough at first and then the shock came to me and I was coasting with ahh just a sensory where I am most pronounced and then I read it properly and it is the whole repetition section itself, with communication involved and social interaction. That gave a lot for me to work through. I accept myself now for who I am.

We ourselves can have some varability.
The indicators for me though mark severity as shown on that day.
Clearly someone severely impacted at Level 3 situation will be different to a high functoning level 1.

It is just not easy for anyone, but many in level 1 are capable of acheving a degree of quality of life. It is not a pyschological disorder. You will probably have the best outcomes and at times jsee as a plus as I judged it on my own until I found the truth. Even if Level 3 I would accept it as well.

I never really did the masking thing in my life. I found that one a bit strange at times, but am trying to understand.

Some may harken for more as they feel they need more care, sad state of affairs.

 

[Jonn]

Do autistic brains look different on MRI?
They compared the imaging of the 142 children in that group with autism, to the general population and found there was lower neuron density in regions of the cerebral cortex. Some of these regions of the brain are responsible for tasks like memory, learning, reasoning, and problem-solving.9 Oct 2024

What does autism look like in the brain?
Using positron emission tomography (PET) scans, researchers found that the brains of autistic adults have fewer synapses—crucial junctions where nerve cells send signals to and from each other or other types of cells—than the brains of neurotypical people.15 Oct 2024

Can Asperger's be seen on a brain scan?
Neuropsychological testing can be used to uncover characteristics of Asperger syndrome. Audiography is indicated to rule out auditory discrimination deficits. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and positron emission tomography (PET) can reveal brain anomalies associated with the condition.13 Feb 2018

Can autism be diagnosed in MRI?
While MRI is not currently used as a standalone diagnostic tool for autism, it offers a complementary approach that can enhance diagnostic accuracy and provide a deeper understanding of the condition.8 Jan 2024

Google Search

 

[Misty Avich]

It's reassuring to know that my brain is no different from NT brains then. I've always felt disturbed at having a different sized brain to everyone else, especially whenever I looked at pictures of what autistic brains apparently looked like (not sure where those pictures came from then?) and they were always bigger as if to indicate we're all Einsteins or something. I don't want to be super clever or have a large brain.

 

[Jonn]

to indicate we're all Einsteins or something.

Based on what I have read, as a group, we tend to have a higher than average intellectual rating.
Not so much when it comes to E.Q.

The Brain on legs has spoken.

 

[Misty Avich]

Yes, it's true that many autistic people are intelligent. Autism can be amazing. Not for me though. I'm more of average intelligence like the average NT, and have higher EQ.

 

[Jonn]

Yes, it's true that many autistic people are intelligent. Autism can be amazing. Not for me though. I'm more of average intelligence like the average NT, and have higher EQ.

As I have said, you seem to be on the fringe of the autistic bell curve, assuming you are "one of us".

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Yes, it's true that many autistic people are intelligent. Autism can be amazing. Not for me though. I'm more of average intelligence like the average NT, and have higher EQ.

Nothing wrong with having just a three digit IQ.

 

[Misty Avich]

Nothing wrong with having just a three digit IQ.

I think my IQ is around 98-102.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I Never take IQ too seriously, Dunning-Kruger effect bothers me more.

 

[Misty Avich]

As I have said, you seem to be on the fringe of the autistic bell curve, assuming you are "one of us".

Going back to the post I made here a few posts up, I believe that the autism spectrum is like a bell curve.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

A lot of natural distributions follow bell curves, even covid followed a series of bell curves. getting smaller with each wave. IQ, and how long you live follow bell curves. Some are within my attachments on various threads. When working with data on processes The first thing I do is make sure the data is normal, way to tell if data is fake or not.

 

[Rachie]

I have had an MRI scan of my head and I have read in actual journal it is very difficult to detect any differences in an autistic brain and a neurotypical brain. They found nothing of significance. However, for some areas like a learning disability there was indeed a significance. Even a sensory processing disorders you can see in the scan and think poor them.

It doesn't show itself to be in that head with autism.

I have not actually had my IQ tested. I would say knowing myself I can have a good hyperfocus and like drawing all my strenghts together and do my best to try and get some topics and walk away when too taxing for free. Some I would run away from unless needed for study and would opt for a pass not Enistein if I couldn't do it. I like what I like.

A normal IQ is around 85 to 115. A consultant at 21 estimated I probably had a normal one but whose to know if not tested. I did those online tests and would get over 130 but those are but mere jokes or what.

A leaning disablity IQ is less than 70. I haven't come across anyone apparently like that on here for I can sense it especially when profound. I want to be respectful. I wonder do some mean learning difficulties at times for they seem intelligent and bright as a button gifted up as well and the autism is apparent but that learning disability I struggle to get my head around. If your IQ is that badly affected, should you be using online some times.
General learning disability

Now that Level 3 autism on its own no disability as pretty much sure I go to levels like 2-3 in a difficult situation can scale there like in meltdown terriority. Would like to see some people getting on with life with Level 3.

I have wondered if I have something like that, perhaps a difficulty or two lol. I don't think I want my IQ professionally tested.

 

[Boogs]

Recently I have read several articles depicting latest research on the functioning of brains of people diagnosed with various conditions. The scientists were studying MRI pictures of brains of selected groups of people. They concluded that there are no pronounced differences between the NT and autistic brains. Apparently, the autistic brains function the same way their NT counterparts do. Currently there are no other metrics that would allow to distinguish these types of brain.

That sounds rather contentious. Is this a peer reviewed published paper, or based on such? The number of questions that raises is significant. If nothing else, how would they separate the co-morbidities that do show on a functional brain scan?

From logical standpoint, if the autistic brain is undamaged then the autistic neurological system is responsible for certain autism characteristics.

How do you define 'damage'? Again, you need to remember that co-morbidities which are very varied but also very common among autistic people will show up on brain scans. How are these separated out? It's not like brain scans are so well executed and understood that we use them to identify autism. It's very early stages - if it could do this, we wouldn't need those awful diagnostic tests instead.

As far as I know, distinctions between Levels 1, 2 and 3 are based on results of autistic tests. I don’t know if the analysis of neurological symptoms plays a role in autism diagnostics. I hope it doesn’t because neurological symptoms pertaining to autism are not unique, a lot of other conditions have the same symptoms, which could lead to a very messy diagnostic.

I think that's absolutely the case, and this is predicated on treatment allocation and resource scarcity. I don't believe anyone can claim to know the underlying pathology of autism, one of the problems are the wide range of symptoms and conditions that can underlie autism. There are indicators such as common gene's and conditions that are very prevalent etc. but understanding what they represent is not too advanced.

It appears that currently there is only one autism therapy available, which is ABA. It has a spotty record and is universally disliked. I wish there were alternatives to ABA but don’t see any.

I know little of autism treatments (we don't have autistic people in the UK, only a very very long waiting list for the right to be called autistic!
I think what you're talking about is fairly cultural and national and will vary across the world. I presume that's US medical care.

The level of care for different categories of autistic individuals depends on politics, at least in US. Even within US they are different from state to state without universally accepted rules and regulations. Probably, the situation is different in European countries with Federal systems of governance.

Lack of clear cut knowledge in the field of autism will always present this sort of problem, many other illnesses and conditions in the past have suffered much the same until enough knowledge is accumulated and put across publicly. AID's would be a classic example, and one that (for all their self-denial) actually effected the normal population (you didn't have to be born with it, anyone could be infected) and yet politics enabled it to become a fatal epidemic.

There are no clear differentiations between Levels 1, 2 and 3; you’re right about that. But I deal with the terminology that was handed to the public to show that autistic people diverge from one another just like NTs. These Levels are simplifications of complex situation, but at the moment there are no competing systems of autism classifications.

I think you're again talking about the US experience? Communications on autism can vary a great deal from country to country. Can you explain what terminology you mean?
There are competing theories, but by definition there can only be one selected for use unless it's part of a clinical trial rather than standard treatment policy. But which one to choose? And that, as you rightly say is political as much as medical, like all other medical issues really, just one of the poorly understood one's still.

Everywhere you see a broken healthcare system (correct me if that's not so), and are rightly focused on poor end care through personal experiences (family), I see a new one that's behaving very much like many others before they were better understood.
But politics has far more to do with things than pretty much anything else - progress through priorities, and autism doesn't get a big political priority in many (most) countries.

 

[Outsider]

That sounds rather contentious. Is this a peer reviewed published paper, or based on such? The number of questions that raises is significant. If nothing else, how would they separate the co-morbidities that do show on a functional brain scan?

How do you define 'damage'? Again, you need to remember that co-morbidities which are very varied but also very common among autistic people will show up on brain scans. How are these separated out? It's not like brain scans are so well executed and understood that we use them to identify autism. It's very early stages - if it could do this, we wouldn't need those awful diagnostic tests instead.

I think that's absolutely the case, and this is predicated on treatment allocation and resource scarcity. I don't believe anyone can claim to know the underlying pathology of autism, one of the problems are the wide range of symptoms and conditions that can underlie autism. There are indicators such as common gene's and conditions that are very prevalent etc. but understanding what they represent is not too advanced.

I know little of autism treatments (we don't have autistic people in the UK, only a very very long waiting list for the right to be called autistic!
I think what you're talking about is fairly cultural and national and will vary across the world. I presume that's US medical care.

Lack of clear cut knowledge in the field of autism will always present this sort of problem, many other illnesses and conditions in the past have suffered much the same until enough knowledge is accumulated and put across publicly. AID's would be a classic example, and one that (for all their self-denial) actually effected the normal population (you didn't have to be born with it, anyone could be infected) and yet politics enabled it to become a fatal epidemic.

I think you're again talking about the US experience? Communications on autism can vary a great deal from country to country. Can you explain what terminology you mean?
There are competing theories, but by definition there can only be one selected for use unless it's part of a clinical trial rather than standard treatment policy. But which one to choose? And that, as you rightly say is political as much as medical, like all other medical issues really, just one of the poorly understood one's still.

Everywhere you see a broken healthcare system (correct me if that's not so), and are rightly focused on poor end care through personal experiences (family), I see a new one that's behaving very much like many others before they were better understood.
But politics has far more to do with things than pretty much anything else - progress through priorities, and autism doesn't get a big political priority in many (most) countries.

The report that I read on the brain scans is a summary report. I have read it some time ago and I didn’t save a link to it. For studies like the ones cited in the report brain scans are done on groups of people who were not diagnosed with comorbidities.

Brain scans are not used to diagnosed any condition, they are done on people who were diagnosed by other means to draw conclusions.

There are certain characteristics indicating that brain damage took place. These characteristics are arbitrary to some degree, but it seems to me that they are universally accepted.

Yes, I see the autism situation from a cultural perspective. In the US people receive autism diagnosis willy-nilly.

I’m not sure what you mean by “a very very long waiting list for the right to be called autistic.” While being on the list, what they are diagnosed with?

The ABA treatment in US came under a strong criticism, and rightfully so. I started a thread here about alternatives to ABA, but so far haven’t seen any of its substitutes.

 

[Rachie]

It is interesting with Autism as I came on this thread earlier to repeat what I saw that they have no significant changes to substainate that an autistic brain was significantly diffferent than a neurotypical's brain and for years research they appeared to find no evidence of such difference. However, strangely to me it was called a neurodivergent condition-this suggests that a difference of structure and fuction can be found in the brain. However, this didn't seem to appear to be case for autism like it was for conditions like bipolar which is a neurodivergent condition and difference are found in the brain to substainate this.

It is only seeming now that they are beginning to uncover more about autism in the brain, but for a long time it was called neurodivergent having found no concrete differences in the brain..interesting.

It is seeming now this is where they are at research looking at potential white matter changes which may point to autism, amongst a few other changes. Interesting, I had a scan of my head and spine in 2021 and I had some things noted with white/grey matter, why it could be a number of things, but with autism longstanding that is of note to me. It is seeming you may need to have your own scan of your head to determine where you stand for yourself.


While MRIs cannot diagnose autism, they can provide valuable information about how autism affects the brain. For example, some studies have found that children with ASD tend to have more grey matter in certain areas of the brain, such as the prefrontal cortex and amygdala.

These areas are important for social communication and emotional regulation, which are often affected in individuals with autism

Can MRIs Diagnose Autism? Will Autism Show On MRIs?

A Key Brain Difference Linked to Autism Is Found for the First Time in Living People

Experts spot structural differences on brain imaging of individuals with autism

 

[Misty Avich]

I probably have a lot of synapses then but some are probably just placed back to front or something. I do wish the sperm done a better job at forming my brain in the womb by adding more synapses in the right places. Then I'd be NT like everyone else in my family.