From a neurotypical's perspective

[Outsider]

My lack of eye contact is due to the discomfort that it gives me. I don't even make eye contact with actors in a movie. What's weird is that other people think that I am looking at their eyes.

It was demonstrated several times recently when I was in the hospital. After many hours of talking to fellow patients, a few of us were sitting around, and I mentioned this issue. None of them believed me that I wasn't looking at their eyes. Even when I am making facial contact (and that's not a given either), my eyes are on the other person's nose or lips.

What's weird about it is that I have no memory of developing this masking technique. Like in other areas, it happened without conscious decision or planning.

Of course, if you're looking at other person's nose bridge, for instance, it looks exactly like you're looking in her eyes, no one can detect the difference. I'm glad that this technique works for you.

 

[Outsider]

There is another aspect of eye contact that is worth mentioning. It appears that autistic people are given incorrect explanation of eye contact, which could lead to confusion and even resistance to it.

As I have read in several Internet articles, eye contact is an expression of trust, it is like saying the target, “Hey, body, I trust you with my life and wellbeing!”

For me it goes like this: I’m in a grocery store and making an eye contact with a cashier. This is her way of telling me that she doesn’t suspect me of using bad money! The eye contact on my part is to let her know that I don’t suspect her of spiking my milk with rat poison! This is a wonderful example of mutual trust! It is beautiful to the point where it becomes stupid.

This is the correct explanation of eye contact – it indicates the desire of one person to have some form of communication, usually the verbal form, with another person. If there is no eye contact a person has no interest in verbal exchange with another person or persons.

You don’t make eye contact with random people when you walk on the street because you have nothing to tell them. But when you ask for directions, you make an eye contact with a person of your choice.

If an autistic person has been bullied for being what she is, she won’t easily give her trust to someone whom she barely knows and will avoid making eye contact with that individual. But the correct explanation of the eye contact won’t prevent her from making it even with a complete stranger because the information exchange is not predicated on trust.

 

[Boogs]

Of course, if you're looking at other person's nose bridge, for instance, it looks exactly like you're looking in her eyes, no one can detect the difference. I'm glad that this technique works for you.

I'd tend to disagree about being not able to see this - I'm intensely focused on minute detail sometimes and pick up on the tiniest movements to such a degree I have to be careful not to spook people I'm talking to. What I often can't do is interpret what it indicates in that person very well. But I agree that most people don't seem to pay conscious attention to where they're looking a lot of the time, there'll be short periods of significance where eye contact needs to be made however fleetingly, in fact so fleetingly they don't notice it's not quite actual eye contact, and much of the rest of the time doesn't matter too much as long as I'm looking at their face in general, and not letting my gaze fix on one thing. Or at least that's what appears to me to be happening - I could be totally deluded while convinced otherwise!

This is the correct explanation of eye contact – it indicates the desire of one person to have some form of communication, usually the verbal form, with another person. If there is no eye contact a person has no interest in verbal exchange with another person or persons.

Are you aware that different cultures can have remarkably different rules on this, and where some see eye contact as a sign of trust, other cultures consider it a sign of aggression and threat, some may use it to show deference, especially in class or cast ridden cultures, and so on. What you say is correct for the culture(s) you've learnt to exist in, but it's not a fundamental rule everywhere.

 

[Rachie]

There was some discussion in this thread about the support levels. I came across something today that I posted to my own personal instagram with concerns a few years ago. It is from pyschcentral as you can see yourself on the upload.

Now this one is a bit of a concern to me. For I after testing already scored moderate but didn't find this out to I put my glasses on and actually took a proper look at my report. I didn't mention rocking at the assessment as I ended up doing this and then finding out it was actually a repetitive behaviour/stim after the event. I would never go for reassesment because this is already enough for me to manage with what I have. I thought it was interesting in view of the debate.

 

[vergil96]

I have constant background stimming going on too. I have always heard that I have ADHD because of it.

 

[Outsider]

I'd tend to disagree about being not able to see this - I'm intensely focused on minute detail sometimes and pick up on the tiniest movements to such a degree I have to be careful not to spook people I'm talking to. What I often can't do is interpret what it indicates in that person very well. But I agree that most people don't seem to pay conscious attention to where they're looking a lot of the time, there'll be short periods of significance where eye contact needs to be made however fleetingly, in fact so fleetingly they don't notice it's not quite actual eye contact, and much of the rest of the time doesn't matter too much as long as I'm looking at their face in general, and not letting my gaze fix on one thing. Or at least that's what appears to me to be happening - I could be totally deluded while convinced otherwise!


Are you aware that different cultures can have remarkably different rules on this, and where some see eye contact as a sign of trust, other cultures consider it a sign of aggression and threat, some may use it to show deference, especially in class or cast ridden cultures, and so on. What you say is correct for the culture(s) you've learnt to exist in, but it's not a fundamental rule everywhere.

Yes, some cultures interpret the eye contact differently. In Muslim cultures, for example, women are not allowed to make eye contact with men because it puts them om a par with men instead of keeping them inferior to male species. However, as I understand, the majority of forum members live in western countries, so my post was intended for them.

 

[Outsider]

If I'm correct, one of the pronounced ADHD symptoms is the short attention span. I have met people with a very short attention span who cannot stay on a topic for more than 3 minutes. I don't know their diagnosis, though.

I attend creative writing classes in a local library. The librarian who conducts them told us once that she was diagnosed with ADHD. However, her attention span is just as good as mine, she stays on the topic for at least 1 hour and sometimes for 90 minutes. In my opinion, she was misdiagnosed.

Some members of this forum were diagnosed with ADHD, too. But they all are able to write long posts, which tells me that they were also misdiagnosed with ADHD.

 

[vergil96]

If I'm correct, one of the pronounced ADHD symptoms is the short attention span. I have met people with a very short attention span who cannot stay on a topic for more than 3 minutes. I don't know their diagnosis, though.

I attend creative writing classes in a local library. The librarian who conducts them told us once that she was diagnosed with ADHD. However, her attention span is just as good as mine, she stays on the topic for at least 1 hour and sometimes for 90 minutes. In my opinion, she was misdiagnosed.

Some members of this forum were diagnosed with ADHD, too. But they all are able to write long posts, which tells me that they were also misdiagnosed with ADHD.

Again, it's not that black and white and you're focusing on just one aspect of ADHD. Perhaps this librarian's house looks like a mess, maybe she struggled with paying attention at school, and so forth. I suppose, since she was diagnosed, there must have been a problem. But many people have ADHD traits and don't experience the negative side, just like with autism - because it's not black and white.

 

[Misty Avich]

You can't just assume every ADHDer with less short attention span were misdiagnosed. It's okay to speak for yourself but not for other people.

 

[Outsider]

You can't just assume every ADHDer with less short attention span were misdiagnosed. It's okay to speak for yourself but not for other people.

I apologize for jumping to conclusion. I am not an expert in this field.

 

[Misty Avich]

I apologize for jumping to conclusion. I am not an expert in this field.

That's okay. I have ADHD and a short attention span in general but it doesn't mean I'm unable to write long posts. I'm not very good at staying on topic though as I tend to drift without realising.

 

[Rachie]

I am not diagnosed with ADHD myself and people are likely way more knowledgeable of this myself who are. I wanted to say that I had read that ADHD comes with three severity levels as well. If it works this way perhaps some people will have less of a severe case that will enable them perhaps to perform all round better than someone else with the disorder who was say level 3. Also, I think some people will be attentive than others.

Simon Baylea for example is a professional gymnast or at least was and she is diagnosed with ADHD and well manages her life to a high degree and so do people like Jamie Oliver who also are diagnosed with ADHD who is another celebrity but a chef this time

 

[Boogs]

I apologize for jumping to conclusion. I am not an expert in this field.

Not many are! Don't be too self critical, you immediately and openly accepted you may have misunderstood something - that's says much more about you than being ignorant of something you'd simply not had much to do with (or enough to have a broad knowledge). Everyone starts off not knowing something they later learn about!

But on the attention span, there are lots of causes of poor attention span that are not related to ADHD. But this is also one of the difficulties in gaining an understanding of neurological developmental conditions - the symptoms and co-conditions can be wildly different with very different effects, yet still can be distilled down to a set of common aspects that many autistic people may have in a variety of combinations and degree (though that's not to say there aren't often less common conditions associated too).

Even those who are autistic and happen to make strong efforts to learn and understand their condition, will still find many other autistic people who are nothing like them. Most professional medics and researchers (et al) who specialise in related neurological conditions have limited understanding - it's a damn complex area of study, and we are still a long way off having a good grasp of the condition. I think we're gradually learning little bits of the big picture, but the jigsaw is still very incomplete. How can we fully grasp the subject of the conditions when we don't yet understand how a 'normal' brain and mind works?

 

[vergil96]

I was diagnosed with adhd

But I'm not sure if the diagnosis was correct and can't get a proper asessment

I have some degree of distractability. I often either power through it of find ways to go around it and failproof against it. It's complicated. Routine helps, therefore I'm not sure if the distractability doesn't result from autism. But there are some features that resemble adhd more closely, for example impatience. I also have very good memory and can switch between many tasks and not forget what I was doing... I feel like many people would forget on my place.

 

[Boogs]

I'm not ADHD at all, though have sometimes been 'accused' of it, but I understand there are multiple flavours, and not just in terms of degree. But I know very little more about it. As for mis-diagnosis, I bet that's not totally uncommon with many neuro/developmental conditions. And from the variety of people here, and the huge range of how they present themselves, I can understand why this would be, and in part a consequence of it being a new and immature science.

 

[Jonn]

Again, it's not that black and white and you're focusing on just one aspect of ADHD. Perhaps this librarian's house looks like a mess, maybe she struggled with paying attention at school, and so forth. I suppose, since she was diagnosed, there must have been a problem. But many people have ADHD traits and don't experience the negative side, just like with autism - because it's not black and white.

Agreed...

 

[Cutesie]

There are also many ADHDers who've worked really hard to improve on their ability to focus. The condition may not be curable, but it's possible to learn skills to get better at keeping one's attention. Meds can also help. That someone has used any of these tools and now doesn't appear to have symptoms doesn't mean that they were misdiagnosed.

 

[Tiffany Kate]

Now this one is a bit of a concern to me. For I after testing already scored moderate but didn't find this out to I put my glasses on and actually took a proper look at my report. I didn't mention rocking at the assessment as I ended up doing this and then finding out it was actually a repetitive behaviour/stim after the event. I would never go for reassesment because this is already enough for me to manage with what I have. I thought it was interesting in view of the debate.

That infographic is a very simplified one. It's sometimes useful to give people simplified information because it's easier to understand the basics - but sometimes, things get simplified too far.

Another thing to remember is what audience the simplified information is aimed at, because things might be deliberately missed out or simplified because the author thinks it's something that isn't important for their target audience to know.

With that infographic, it seems to me that the target audience isn't autistic people aiming to understand their diagnosis, or professionals trying to diagnose autism - it's more aimed at the general population who might find themselves dealing with an autistic person. So it's aimed at describing what autism might look like from the outside. For instance, I'm level 1, and that description is pretty accurate for how I present in general day-to-day life. However, if you get to know me, you'll find that I definitely have "high interest in specific topics", it's just that I don't talk about them unless it comes up. Likewise, I do have some repetitive behaviours, but not such that it's noticeable day-to-day unless you're paying close attention.

The diagnostic criteria for autism are the same regardless of whether it's level 1, 2, or 3 (Clinical Testing and Diagnosis for Autism Spectrum Disorder) - what makes it Level 1, 2 or 3 is the severity of the symptoms.

When you go through the diagnostic procedure for autism, they're not just looking at how you present day-to-day, doing your best to "act neurotypical". They're actively aiming to find the "real you", underneath any tricks and techniques you may have learned to disguise or deal with your autistic-ness. This gets more important the older you are, as you may be "masking" without knowing it in some ways, because you have learned to do/not do certain things by trial and error and now they are just part of how you present to the world.

So during a diagnostic interview, they won't just be listening to what they say, they'll be evaluating how you say things and actively watching what you do.

Some members of this forum were diagnosed with ADHD, too. But they all are able to write long posts, which tells me that they were also misdiagnosed with ADHD.

Diagnosis is a lot more complex than this. It's also important to remember that:
- Autism and ADHD are spectrum disorders, and an individual will often have more significant problems with some areas than others.
- For many people (especially adults), they will have learned ways to cope with any deficits they have which results in those deficits not being as noticeable (which is the whole point!). As an outside observer, you may not be able to spot or know about the training/practice/techniques the person uses to disguise or work around their deficits.

Writing a long post on a forum is a good example of how you only see the end product, not the process that went into it. There may have been a lot of re-drafting and pulling-back of wandering attention in the process... but all you see is a tidy post and not all the blood, sweat and tears that went into it.

For example, in day-to-day life, I have a reputation for being exceptionally well-organised. ("Forget? You? You never forget anything," said someone recently). What they don't see is the amount of time and trouble I take to seem that way. I know that if I don't put every single thing on my to-do list immediately then it will go out of my head and won't get done. I can't remember more than two instructions of any list (the first two or the last two). So I have to write it down. If a task is not on my list, I won't start it even if I do remember it (sometimes not even then). If I don't have a nice visual representation of all the projects I'm dealing with, I can't remember them and something will slip through the cracks. My appearance of being well-organised is actually an over-correction of a certain amount of executive dysfunction. But that's not what people see.

 

[Misty Avich]

Funny how when NTs take something at face value it's just normal but if an Aspie takes something at face value it's suddenly just an autistic trait and we lack empathy.
That's why I wish I were NT.

 

[Tiffany Kate]

Funny how when NTs take something at face value it's just normal but if an Aspie takes something at face value it's suddenly just an autistic trait and we lack empathy.
That's why I wish I were NT.

That is the curse of the outsider. Every culture thinks the way they do things is right and natural, and the way those other people do it is wrong. Humans don't think about breathing air, and fish (we assume) do not think about breathing water.

Although the behaviour resulting from autistic traits isn't exactly cultural, it operates similarly. We do what we think is normal, they do what they think is normal, and the two things don't match up. And because they are the majority, they get to decide what the cultural "normal" is and call everything else "abnormal".

On a slightly more optimistic note, I think we may be starting to see more of a realisation that the so-called autistic "inability to empathise" is actually the result of neurological differences in how we see the world and interpret body language. When we know there's something to empathise about, we empathise just fine. And, it's starting to be realised, it goes the other way as well. Neurotypicals have the same problem reading autistic body language and realising there's something to empathise about. (The "double empathy" problem.)

I generally like who I am and wouldn't want to be someone different (and if I wasn't autistic I wouldn't be the same person), but there are definitely times when it would be much easier to be neurotypical. :-(