From a neurotypical's perspective

[Ronald Zeeman]

I do not even notice if I look in any bodies eyes , Nt's do notice they tell me I do not, but I do not care. Either way.
its their issue not mine. Retired 70 years old, just leave me alone.

 

[Boogs]

A proper eye contact requires just a couple of seconds of looking into a collocutor’s eyes in the beginning of a conversation, and then looking in his/her direction in general, but not into their eyes. You could renew an eye contact after five minutes or so for another two seconds to show that you’re still interested in the conversation. This is very simple, and everyone can do it.

I think you've just hit one of the nails of this thread's title right on the head.

That last sentence is a complete denial of all the autistic people here who have a problem with that specific thing (and that's a selection of members here, far from all), and strikes home at one of the fundamental problems, you've said this as a statement of fact so indisputable it needs no explanation - but for those of us for whom this is a very real problem, how do you think we should interpret that statement? Is it saying we don't actually have a problem with this, it's something else, a sham, an excuse, a diversion for something, what do you think it is?

Some of us have grown good at faking it in some situations, but simple? No, not at all (though I bet there are also some here for whom it is simple), but the biggest part of the issue is the unquestioning assumption that if it works for someone in a certain way it must work for everyone else the same, and I experienced that miscomprehension myself and spent most of my life totally unaware that my actual perceptions were really quite different from 99% of the population, so I appreciate how powerful that cognitive bias can be, but in the end much of what we think is common to almost all of us, is very much not the case. This isn't just autism either, although autism tends to relate to people with more extreme differences than for those described as normal.

 

[Rodafina]

This is very simple, and everyone can do it.

@Outsider
It's good that you are here so that you can learn more about a variety of autistic people and the way that they experience the world. You said you would like to learn more about this condition, so I hope that you are able to absorb the information and learn from the people here that are sharing their experiences.

What you stated above about eye contact is a good demonstration of where there is room for learning and one way in which the ND and NT experience may be very different. I hope you are truly here to learn and willing to listen.

 

[Tiffany Kate]

Eye contact isn't simple, and not everybody can do it. For me, looking into someone's eyes feels very... weird. And physically uncomfortable. I find myself looking away quickly - a bit like flinching back after accidentally touching something hot.

Online meetings make it easier, because I think eyes on a computer screen are not quite like real eyes.

Interestingly, "proper" eye contact varies between cultures. According to Watching the English, appropriate eye contact between strangers in England is a fraction of a second. Maintaining eye contact for a whole second implies either flirtation or aggression. (Or, presumably, that you're autistic and have been told that the proper thing to do is hold eye contact for two seconds.)

So maybe I'm just English!

 

[Rodafina]

For me, every moment of eye contact takes away from what I am able to hear in the conversation. If I am able to close my eyes, then I process the other person’s words so much better. Closing eyes during conversations doesn’t seem like something most people I speak to are comfortable with, so I settle for eyes open but averted. I try to show engagement by listening well and making salient comments on what the other person said.

@Tiffany Kate, I think your comment about cultural differences in eye contact expectation is really important and a great point.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Even other autistics have commented to me they have no idea if I am listening to them, however surprised when they ask questions and find yes I was. It's not about eye contact, rather ear contact which is harder to determine.

 

[Jonn]

A proper eye contact requires just a couple of seconds of looking into a collocutor’s eyes in the beginning of a conversation, and then looking in his/her direction in general, but not into their eyes. You could renew an eye contact after five minutes or so for another two seconds to show that you’re still interested in the conversation. This is very simple, and everyone can do it.

If you are an NT.

Most NDs would like to fit in.
Unfortunately you seem to lack the insight necessary to understand that what is simple for NTs is not necessarily simple for those on the autistic spectrum.

Information overload can result in emotional meltdowns.
Saying don't get emotional is not a working solution for many of us.

I described one instance of improper eye contact. Now, let’s say you’re a man and you make a prolonged eye contact with another man. In this case different NTs interpret it differently.

Honestly, I would think that the person is a mental case, and won’t take him seriously.

Some NTs might see it as a challenge, especially if they disagree with something that you say, and the conversation could become heated.

There could be other interpretations, none of which is in your favor.

In some situations making an improper eye contact could be worse than making no eye contact.

Actually, I haven't paid attention to the website's name.

Interesting perspective you have.
Interesting assumptions.
But we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Jonn]

Eye contact isn't simple, and not everybody can do it. For me, looking into someone's eyes feels very... weird. And physically uncomfortable. I find myself looking away quickly - a bit like flinching back after accidentally touching something hot.

I don't have a problem with eye contact in terms of discomfort.
It has more to do with being distracted, having a major problem with ADHD.

If I listen to something important on TV, I will close my eyes to concentrate on what I am hearing.
If I am focusing on responding to something important on the net, I will mute the TV.
Information/sensory overload is a problem for many of us.

Online meetings make it easier, because I think eyes on a computer screen are not quite like real eyes.

I find the best means of communication for me, and presumably for many on the spectrum, is a forum situation.
It allows for time to think with less distraction.

Interestingly, "proper" eye contact varies between cultures. According to Watching the English, appropriate eye contact between strangers in England is a fraction of a second. Maintaining eye contact for a whole second implies either flirtation or aggression. (Or, presumably, that you're autistic and have been told that the proper thing to do is hold eye contact for two seconds.)

This has been my experience.
I have had to learn to tone down eye contact.

 

[Jonn]

I think you've just hit one of the nails of this thread's title right on the head.

That last sentence is a complete denial of all the autistic people here who have a problem with that specific thing (and that's a selection of members here, far from all), and strikes home at one of the fundamental problems, you've said this as a statement of fact so indisputable it needs no explanation - but for those of us for whom this is a very real problem, how do you think we should interpret that statement? Is it saying we don't actually have a problem with this, it's something else, a sham, an excuse, a diversion for something, what do you think it is?

Some of us have grown good at faking it in some situations, but simple? No, not at all (though I bet there are also some here for whom it is simple), but the biggest part of the issue is the unquestioning assumption that if it works for someone in a certain way it must work for everyone else the same, and I experienced that miscomprehension myself and spent most of my life totally unaware that my actual perceptions were really quite different from 99% of the population, so I appreciate how powerful that cognitive bias can be, but in the end much of what we think is common to almost all of us, is very much not the case. This isn't just autism either, although autism tends to relate to people with more extreme differences than for those described as normal.

Precisely.

 

[vergil96]

Hmmm, am I one of the few people who understand tangled plots and follow them with interest? Lol

 

[Jonn]

Hmmm, am I one of the few people who understand tangled plots and follow them with interest? Lol

I gather you have a good working memory.
Damn you!

 

[Boogs]

By the way @Outsider, if I came across as critical or judgemental that wasn't my intent, but looking back I can see I may have appeared so. I was trying to show you how we are all controlled by our subconscious assumptions and it's only when something highlights an example, questions that assumption, that we can start to see how we assume a great deal about a great many things without putting much thought into it, and tend to assume others assume the same or similar things.

 

[Misty Avich]

I hate making eye contact with passing strangers unless there's a reason to (like if they're asking me for directions or are stepping aside to let me pass or holding the door open, etc, then it's easy). But if no interaction is needed then I don't know why but I find it awkward to look at them as I pass them, as I suddenly become conscious of where I'm looking and I don't want to look at them too much in case it intimidates them but I don't want to look like it's forced because then I look too nervous. So I just avoid eye contact altogether when passing a stranger in the street. But if someone, anyone, speaks to me or holds the door open for me or whatever then I'll naturally make eye contact. I need to make eye contact otherwise how can you read facial expressions properly? Eye contact is required to get a full image of the face (expression-wise).

However, if I'm trying to avoid making eye contact with someone (like a bully who has intimidated me before for looking them) I tend to accidentally look at them more, because I'm nervous of them.

 

[Jonn]

but I find it awkward to look at them as I pass them, as I suddenly become conscious of where I'm looking and I don't want to look at them too much in case it intimidates them

I wear sunglasses.
Problem solved.

Some ppl may consider it rude, but I really don't care.
I am assertive like a bull, these days.
I do usually take them off when I have direct dialogue with someone.

Also, I am starting to develop cataracts, (age related), and was advised, by an optometrist, to wear them all the time.

 

[Misty Avich]

I feel self-conscious when wearing sunglasses on a cloudy day or in winter, as I feel like people are judging me even though I'm not looking at them I can still sense it.

 

[Jonn]

I feel self-conscious when wearing sunglasses on a cloudy day or in winter, as I feel like people are judging me even though I'm not looking at them I can still sense it.

You are not strong like bull cow, yet.
Give it another 30 years.

 

[Misty Avich]

You are not strong like bull cow, yet.
Give it another 30 years.

Hopefully.

 

[Outsider]

By the way @Outsider, if I came across as critical or judgemental that wasn't my intent, but looking back I can see I may have appeared so. I was trying to show you how we are all controlled by our subconscious assumptions and it's only when something highlights an example, questions that assumption, that we can start to see how we assume a great deal about a great many things without putting much thought into it, and tend to assume others assume the same or similar things.

To me you're not judgmental at all, I don't see any criticism in your posts.

I guess that you, unlike myself, haven't visited unmoderated websites. It's the Wild West there! You can see references to your Mama and advices to stop screwing your grandma. But these places could be very addictive especially if you want to forcefully express your points of view - this is why I was going there.

 

[Boogs]

To me you're not judgmental at all, I don't see any criticism in your posts.

I guess that you, unlike myself, haven't visited unmoderated websites. It's the Wild West there! You can see references to your Mama and advices to stop screwing your grandma. But these places could be very addictive especially if you want to forcefully express your points of view - this is why I was going there.

I've been using the internet since web sites were a new thing, moderation was yet to be invented, and most people used archie and ftp, and nntp and the like, so I've seen it grow from geeks n' nerd's (pre-AOL days - ah! was so nice back then, flame wars between nerds over whether little endian is better than big endian! (don't ask! ), now it's whether 9 out of 10 migrants prefer to eat cats over dogs, or whatever insanity of the day is current).
Online interactions easily become corrupted if not moderated/regulated - simply a fact that humans are not evolved to handle it well especially when being manipulated. Avoid anything with an AI timeline!

I taken the time to find out more about things like social media, and the mechanisms they often employ. The idea they came about to 'bring us all together in the global village' is stuff and nonsense. Zucker-lump got into it so he and his peers could misogynistically compare their female counterparts at university. And now these thing are often heavily laden with powerful psychological triggers aimed at one thing over all else - maximum time engaged with the software, at any expense. The users have become the companies product and they farm and harvest us.

Of course, someone who is of the opinion advertising is just a nice way to make us all aware of available products, won't be likely to appreciate this, and in fact it's power is that the majority of people don't appreciate it.
Me? Makes me want to vomit frankly, using these things that control what I see and hear and read instead of choosing myself what I should be learning about in the world is just control, and I decided long ago I'd rather be wrong by finding out for myself than be told what's right and wrong and how things are by someone else.

 

[Cutesie]

My lack of eye contact is due to the discomfort that it gives me. I don't even make eye contact with actors in a movie. What's weird is that other people think that I am looking at their eyes.

It was demonstrated several times recently when I was in the hospital. After many hours of talking to fellow patients, a few of us were sitting around, and I mentioned this issue. None of them believed me that I wasn't looking at their eyes. Even when I am making facial contact (and that's not a given either), my eyes are on the other person's nose or lips.

What's weird about it is that I have no memory of developing this masking technique. Like in other areas, it happened without conscious decision or planning.