I attended a speed dating event today

[Misty Avich]

Also women can flirt and pester men without seeming creepy, whereas if a man tries to get attention from a woman and is socially awkward he could be mistaken for being creepy.

When I was single I could flirt and pester men as much as I wanted, and I never got into legal trouble. I may have looked daft and was annoying, but that was it (although the men did like my attention). But had I of been a man trying the same on with women, I probably would have got into some sort of legal trouble, and being called a "pervert" or something.

So I think that's another reason why it can be difficult for ND men to get a woman (or something NT men too, if they lack confidence and don't have that cocky charm). Unfortunately many loud NT men with the cocky charm can actually be perverts or worse but are able to manipulate. Like I said earlier in this thread, confidence is everything. It's usually the shy or socially awkward guys that get falsely and unfairly accused of being a pervert even though many are not at all. I know Tony, Markness and Steelbookcollector and others here aren't perverts, you're just ASD guys wanting a girlfriend. That's normal and genuine. But being socially awkward can make it harder to get girls' attention without making a fool of yourself or something.

I'm just giving another reason why dating is harder for men on the spectrum that it is for us women, I'm not judging anyone personally or assuming anything. But I know you'll know what I mean.

 

[thejuice]

'Creep' radar is only good at picking up social difference, not antisocial tendancies. So autistic men are very vulnerable to having their intentions be misunderstood, especially when they are way out of their comfort zone, having to make the first move because of a wish not to be forever alone. Not only could it get them into legal trouble, it's the kind of misinterpretation that could get you told on, thrown out and banned from places and beaten up too, even killed. Any true crime buff will have seen this play out. @Misty Avich

 

[Jonn]

When I was single I could flirt and pester men as much as I wanted, and I never got into legal trouble. I may have looked daft and was annoying, but that was it (although the men did like my attention). But had I of been a man trying the same on with women, I probably would have got into some sort of legal trouble, and being called a "pervert" or something.

Spoiler

The something = groomer.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Also women can flirt and pester men without seeming creepy, whereas if a man tries to get attention from a woman and is socially awkward he could be mistaken for being creepy.

When I was single I could flirt and pester men as much as I wanted, and I never got into legal trouble. I may have looked daft and was annoying, but that was it (although the men did like my attention). But had I of been a man trying the same on with women, I probably would have got into some sort of legal trouble, and being called a "pervert" or something.

So I think that's another reason why it can be difficult for ND men to get a woman (or something NT men too, if they lack confidence and don't have that cocky charm). Unfortunately many loud NT men with the cocky charm can actually be perverts or worse but are able to manipulate. Like I said earlier in this thread, confidence is everything. It's usually the shy or socially awkward guys that get falsely and unfairly accused of being a pervert even though many are not at all. I know Tony, Markness and Steelbookcollector and others here aren't perverts, you're just ASD guys wanting a girlfriend. That's normal and genuine. But being socially awkward can make it harder to get girls' attention without making a fool of yourself or something.

I'm just giving another reason why dating is harder for men on the spectrum that it is for us women, I'm not judging anyone personally or assuming anything. But I know you'll know what I mean.

and this is a part of where the world just doesn't understand or doesn't sympathize enough with the social difficulties of autism, or even people without autism, who don't do well in social situations, people and society, they never say it, but they expect men to naturally have common sense, they expect us to have the social intuition or social awareness, calibration, for knowing how to properly behave and act around women, they expect us to naturally be born with the common sense for knowing how to not be creepy or weird, knowing how to never make women uncomfortable.

It gets more enraging and infuritating, when people say to guys, men "don't be creepy or weird then", yeah they just expect us to naturally know how.

And yes it goes back to what was said, the social mistakes or social errors that men can sadly make that can get them labeled creepy or weird, uncomfortable by women, if the situation was the reverse, if women did those things to men, she will be easily forgiven or be seen as cute or adorable, or people just won't care.

Reminds me of a statement i read from a guy, he said to another guy about social awkwardness or social ineptness:

"the part you may not realize is that I used to be the most socially awkward shy guy you can imagine. It's not something I ever felt compelled to embrace. Rather, I wanted to beat it over the head with a shovel until it stopped twitching.Learned helplessness is so enraging because it saps you of the very power your masculine nature craves. That's what's going on there. Beat the shyness or awkwardness by whatever means possible, and you'll begin to enjoy the power you reclaim."

That really angered me and pissed me off, so its like, men have to change themselves socially, but women don't.

Why am i not surprised that you Misty, you have a husband, a man, but you said your brother has never had a girlfriend before.

Even reading some testimonials from some dating coaches only added fuel to fire.

 

[Misty Avich]

I used to think I'll never get a boyfriend because I don't wear make-up and I'm unconfident. But I think those two only applied in high school for girls. I never had a boyfriend in high school, it just didn't happen. I was too shy and didn't seem to know how to talk to boys. Plus I was known as the "retarded kid" in my class due to everyone knowing about my diagnosis and treating me like I had a disease, so that didn't help my social score.

Then when I was 18 and was in the adult world I discovered that older men were much easier to impress and despite being shy I suddenly became quite sociable around men I liked and I seemed to know how to talk to them. Obsession prevails. And yes, because I was a female it was just seen as cute so I got away with it. I know it looks like I was making myself rather vulnerable to men, I actually wasn't. I still knew my limits and could read body language well, so I knew who to stay away from. I've never let myself be groomed to the point of becoming traumatized.

My brother has depression, low self-esteem and severe self-loathing, and I think when guys are like that they're more likely to back away from relationships, or at least find it difficult to find a girlfriend (even though he's asexual now, but like I said, he hates being asexual). I have anxiety, prone to depression and I have low self-esteem and self-loathing, but I've still never felt unworthy enough for a relationship. I think women are more likely to open up maybe, I don't know.
My brother is the private type who hates anyone seeing him naked or even wearing a towel after a shower, and he panics at the thought of sharing a bed or even a room with someone. He's just very private and gets embarrassed easily. I get embarrassed easily too, like I'd rather die than fart in front of anyone, but I've never been embarrassed about exposing my body to my partner or being seen wearing a towel by people other than my partner. I have no body shame. My brother has a nice body (slim and tall and good-looking) but unfortunately still hides it away and believes he's really ugly.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

I used to think I'll never get a boyfriend because I don't wear make-up and I'm unconfident. But I think those two only applied in high school for girls. I never had a boyfriend in high school, it just didn't happen. I was too shy and didn't seem to know how to talk to boys. Plus I was known as the "retarded kid" in my class due to everyone knowing about my diagnosis and treating me like I had a disease, so that didn't help my social score.

Then when I was 18 and was in the adult world I discovered that older men were much easier to impress and despite being shy I suddenly became quite sociable around men I liked and I seemed to know how to talk to them. Obsession prevails. And yes, because I was a female it was just seen as cute so I got away with it. I know it looks like I was making myself rather vulnerable to men, I actually wasn't. I still knew my limits and could read body language well, so I knew who to stay away from. I've never let myself be groomed to the point of becoming traumatized.

My brother has depression, low self-esteem and severe self-loathing, and I think when guys are like that they're more likely to back away from relationships, or at least find it difficult to find a girlfriend (even though he's asexual now, but like I said, he hates being asexual). I have anxiety, prone to depression and I have low self-esteem and self-loathing, but I've still never felt unworthy enough for a relationship. I think women are more likely to open up maybe, I don't know.
My brother is the private type who hates anyone seeing him naked or even wearing a towel after a shower, and he panics at the thought of sharing a bed or even a room with someone. He's just very private and gets embarrassed easily. I get embarrassed easily too, like I'd rather die than fart in front of anyone, but I've never been embarrassed about exposing my body to my partner or being seen wearing a towel by people other than my partner. I have no body shame. My brother has a nice body (slim and tall and good-looking) but unfortunately still hides it away and believes he's really ugly.

yeah, some mens dating coaches got me upset, while they did help some men attract women, get girlfriends, some were depressing cases which are another reminder on how men are more likely than women are to still be single like that, heard from 2 that some of their clients never had a girlfriend until their early 40s.

Another guy, he said early 30s, i remember i asked him how was his dating life like before he met his fiance, he said "not at all man, zero".

Just was depressing irritating reminders.

 

[FeatherBird]

i already know there is no such thing as fairness, never has been, never will be, but i know me and guys like Tony, do like to always believe that in many ways, dating is unfair for men because of men always having to be the ones to ask the woman out and make the first move all the time, or how its apparently more common for men than for women to reach a certain decade and to have never been in a relationship before.

However, people like to argue this are rough tough things women have to deal with, that is, men will be less inspired, less motivated to approach or pursue them as their looks fade, people say women are judged harshly by their appearance more than men are, and also, womens fertility starts declining once they enter their 30s, and if they are single, it causes them to feel rushed to find the right man before its too late, too late in the sense of hoping to start a family.

That has to be very rough on women.

While I get your general point, there are instances where the woman makes the move (I got a date in 2018 that way)

As my therapist put it, however, even though it happens (the woman making the move) more than it used to, he'd estimate the woman still expects the man to make the move in 85+% of cases.

To address some other stuff you said, yeah, it's becoming increasingly common for men to approach their 30th birthday never having had a girlfriend.

 

[FeatherBird]

I think both genders have their own challenges. But I do get (as in understand) the frustrating difficulties men on the spectrum face with dating. It exists.

I'm glad you understand.

I used to belong to a different ASD forum (which I won't name) where we were prohibited from even mentioning the fact men with ASD face unique struggles when finding a partner.

When we have a condition that makes us socially stunted, and our gender is expected to make the move in the vast majority of cases, of course we're going to face unique challenges (which, of course, isn't to say a woman with ASD doesn't face challenges of her own)

Another challenge we run into is the fact men are expected to be a protector, yet men with ASD (even ones with large body types) lack the qualities of a protector. Plus, we're expected to be a provider, yet other than ultra wealthy ASD men (Musk, Zuckerberg) or ASD men with STEM jobs, most of us don't make much money.

 

[thejuice]

My brother has depression, low self-esteem and severe self-loathing, and I think when guys are like that they're more likely to back away from relationships, or at least find it difficult to find a girlfriend (even though he's asexual now, but like I said, he hates being asexual). I have anxiety, prone to depression and I have low self-esteem and self-loathing, but I've still never felt unworthy enough for a relationship. I think women are more likely to open up maybe, I don't know.

You understand our complications well. I suffered with all those at school. Unworthy is the right word. So even when I knew a girl liked me, it stopped me taking the initiative. I was a passive person. I couldn't enter her friend circle, too anxious. It is what it is, we all follow the norms of our cultures to a greater or lesser extent, unless you have supreme confidence.

Yes, a girl asking a boy out does happen. Because it is running against the grain somewhat, it feels like more risk I think. A shy boy would love it.

 

[FeatherBird]

Also women can flirt and pester men without seeming creepy, whereas if a man tries to get attention from a woman and is socially awkward he could be mistaken for being creepy.

When I was single I could flirt and pester men as much as I wanted, and I never got into legal trouble. I may have looked daft and was annoying, but that was it (although the men did like my attention). But had I of been a man trying the same on with women, I probably would have got into some sort of legal trouble, and being called a "pervert" or something.

So I think that's another reason why it can be difficult for ND men to get a woman (or something NT men too, if they lack confidence and don't have that cocky charm). Unfortunately many loud NT men with the cocky charm can actually be perverts or worse but are able to manipulate. Like I said earlier in this thread, confidence is everything. It's usually the shy or socially awkward guys that get falsely and unfairly accused of being a pervert even though many are not at all. I know Tony, Markness and Steelbookcollector and others here aren't perverts, you're just ASD guys wanting a girlfriend. That's normal and genuine. But being socially awkward can make it harder to get girls' attention without making a fool of yourself or something.

I'm just giving another reason why dating is harder for men on the spectrum that it is for us women, I'm not judging anyone personally or assuming anything. But I know you'll know what I mean.

You illustrated a brilliant point. If a woman with ASD does a socially awkward flirt, it gets (at most) laughed at or merely viewed as annoying. On the other hand, a man with ASD doing a socially awkward flirt could get him viewed as a creep.

I remember reading somewhere that "creep" is the worst word for a man to get described as (Because "creep" is entirely subjective. And once you get branded a creep by a woman, it's basically impossible to change the woman's mind)

On the topic of legal trouble, it's unfortunately pretty common for men with ASD to get expelled (or nearly expelled) from college for pursuing a female classmate using "creepy" methods he doesn't even realize are creepy. On the same note, as you indicated, even outside of a college setting we're at risk of running into legal trouble for unknowingly doing something wrong when pursuing a woman.

Even though I haven't run into any legal trouble, I've had a woman threaten to rat me out to the cops if I sent her even one more message (this was a woman who, a mere few days prior, agreed to set up a date with me)

My therapist shared a story of an 18 year old guy with ASD running into legal trouble (which he luckily got out of)

As a closing comment on this post, I'm going to point out a double standard (this ties in with your comment about how men with ASD get unfairly branded perverts, yet neurotypical men manage to get away with much worse behavior). Here's an example: If a high school guy with ASD were to so much as tell a female classmate he likes her backside, he'd be viewed as a creepy perv. Yet if a popular football player said the same thing to a female classmate, and then elaborated on what exactly he'd like to do with her in the bedroom, he wouldn't get viewed as a creep. He might even end up in the bedroom with her (and even if not, his comment would get laughed off)

 

[FeatherBird]

'Creep' radar is only good at picking up social difference, not antisocial tendancies. So autistic men are very vulnerable to having their intentions be misunderstood, especially when they are way out of their comfort zone, having to make the first move because of a wish not to be forever alone. Not only could it get them into legal trouble, it's the kind of misinterpretation that could get you told on, thrown out and banned from places and beaten up too, even killed. Any true crime buff will have seen this play out. @Misty Avich

Damn right.

Creep radars are pretty crappy, as they don't detect actual threats (only social difference)

Ironically, those of us with ASD are far more likely to get victimized than we are to victimize anyone. How stupid that we somehow get viewed as dangerous.

 

[thejuice]

It is flawed yes but not stupid, probably safe. There is nothing to lose by categorising someone as a creep. There is a lot to lose by not categorising a creep as a creep. Unfortunately dark personalities can be good manipulators.

 

[FeatherBird]

and this is a part of where the world just doesn't understand or doesn't sympathize enough with the social difficulties of autism, or even people without autism, who don't do well in social situations, people and society, they never say it, but they expect men to naturally have common sense, they expect us to have the social intuition or social awareness, calibration, for knowing how to properly behave and act around women, they expect us to naturally be born with the common sense for knowing how to not be creepy or weird, knowing how to never make women uncomfortable.

It gets more enraging and infuritating, when people say to guys, men "don't be creepy or weird then", yeah they just expect us to naturally know how.

And yes it goes back to what was said, the social mistakes or social errors that men can sadly make that can get them labeled creepy or weird, uncomfortable by women, if the situation was the reverse, if women did those things to men, she will be easily forgiven or be seen as cute or adorable, or people just won't care.

Reminds me of a statement i read from a guy, he said to another guy about social awkwardness or social ineptness:

"the part you may not realize is that I used to be the most socially awkward shy guy you can imagine. It's not something I ever felt compelled to embrace. Rather, I wanted to beat it over the head with a shovel until it stopped twitching.Learned helplessness is so enraging because it saps you of the very power your masculine nature craves. That's what's going on there. Beat the shyness or awkwardness by whatever means possible, and you'll begin to enjoy the power you reclaim."

That really angered me and pissed me off, so its like, men have to change themselves socially, but women don't.

Why am i not surprised that you Misty, you have a husband, a man, but you said your brother has never had a girlfriend before.

Even reading some testimonials from some dating coaches only added fuel to fire.

Another problem is the fact every woman is different in terms of what she'd prefer (as far as a man's behavior). This can impact neurotypical men too.

I witnessed a woman throw an absolute hissy fit (loud enough I could hear way at the other end of the bus) because a male passenger (who appeared to be neurotypical) tried to speak to her. On the other hand, another woman might be totally open to getting chatted up by a male passenger.

I guess what I'm saying is: If even neurotypical men can have a hard time deciphering what any given woman wants, a man with ASD will struggle to a massive degree.

I also agree we shouldn't have to change ourselves (and become social butterflies). Not everyone is cut out to be a social butterfly. In fact, those of us with ASD have innate differences that make it impossible for us to become social butterflies in the vast majority of cases.

 

[thejuice]

Yes double standards exist. At school i had girls do things to me that would get a boy expelled.

 

[FeatherBird]

I used to think I'll never get a boyfriend because I don't wear make-up and I'm unconfident. But I think those two only applied in high school for girls. I never had a boyfriend in high school, it just didn't happen. I was too shy and didn't seem to know how to talk to boys. Plus I was known as the "retarded kid" in my class due to everyone knowing about my diagnosis and treating me like I had a disease, so that didn't help my social score.

Then when I was 18 and was in the adult world I discovered that older men were much easier to impress and despite being shy I suddenly became quite sociable around men I liked and I seemed to know how to talk to them. Obsession prevails. And yes, because I was a female it was just seen as cute so I got away with it. I know it looks like I was making myself rather vulnerable to men, I actually wasn't. I still knew my limits and could read body language well, so I knew who to stay away from. I've never let myself be groomed to the point of becoming traumatized.

My brother has depression, low self-esteem and severe self-loathing, and I think when guys are like that they're more likely to back away from relationships, or at least find it difficult to find a girlfriend (even though he's asexual now, but like I said, he hates being asexual). I have anxiety, prone to depression and I have low self-esteem and self-loathing, but I've still never felt unworthy enough for a relationship. I think women are more likely to open up maybe, I don't know.
My brother is the private type who hates anyone seeing him naked or even wearing a towel after a shower, and he panics at the thought of sharing a bed or even a room with someone. He's just very private and gets embarrassed easily. I get embarrassed easily too, like I'd rather die than fart in front of anyone, but I've never been embarrassed about exposing my body to my partner or being seen wearing a towel by people other than my partner. I have no body shame. My brother has a nice body (slim and tall and good-looking) but unfortunately still hides it away and believes he's really ugly.

I prefer a woman with no makeup.

I can relate to the thing about being known as "the retarded kid" (even though it's taboo to use the word "retarded," that's seriously how the outside world views those of us with ASD). While none of my classmates knew I had ASD, I had a boss at a past job who basically forced me to either tell him exactly what's "wrong" with me or get fired. So I had no choice but to come clean regarding my ASD. From that point on, he treated me like a retarded child.

There's nothing wrong with being retarded (as the retarded have no control over their condition). That being said, the fact ASD is viewed as synonymous with retardation really grinds my gears. We tend to be above average in IQ (which means, ironically, chances are we have a higher IQ than whoever's viewing us as retarded)

I can relate to your brother about hating the thought of sharing a bed or room with anyone.

One last interesting thing I'm going to address is your comment about preferring older men. I myself gravitate toward older women. I wonder if folks with ASD are more likely than neurotypicals to prefer older (If so, I have a theory: Social rejection by our peers growing up)

 

[thejuice]

Another problem is the fact every woman is different in terms of what she'd prefer (as far as a man's behavior). This can impact neurotypical men too.

I witnessed a woman throw an absolute hissy fit (loud enough I could hear way at the other end of the bus) because a male passenger (who appeared to be neurotypical) tried to speak to her. On the other hand, another woman might be totally open to getting chatted up by a male passenger.

I guess what I'm saying is: If even neurotypical men can have a hard time deciphering what any given woman wants, a man with ASD will struggle to a massive degree.

I also agree we shouldn't have to change ourselves (and become social butterflies). Not everyone is cut out to be a social butterfly. In fact, those of us with ASD have innate differences that make it impossible for us to become social butterflies in the vast majority of cases.

Yeah I've had the unfortunate experience of thinking I'm flirting but accidentally sending the wrong signals. Its hard to judge what went wrong when you're in the eye of the storm, lol. I'm just a terrible flirter! Best thing to do is just get away once you realise its not going well. The 'tribe' will instinctively turn against you. I don't beat myself up, I know I'm a decent person, a bit misunderstood. A cold chill comes over me if I think I've upset someone. (A deathly fear, for an evolved reason)

 

[FeatherBird]

You understand our complications well. I suffered with all those at school. Unworthy is the right word. So even when I knew a girl liked me, it stopped me taking the initiative. I was a passive person. I couldn't enter her friend circle, too anxious. It is what it is, we all follow the norms of our cultures to a greater or lesser extent, unless you have supreme confidence.

Yes, a girl asking a boy out does happen. Because it is running against the grain somewhat, it feels like more risk I think. A shy boy would love it.

I can relate to feeling unworthy.

My freshman year of high school, I was flat out told by a girl that it would hurt her reputation if we dated.

Come junior year, there was a girl I probably had a chance with. Yet I never made a move (because I had been conditioned to think "no girl can date me; it would kill her reputation")

 

[thejuice]

it would hurt her reputation if we dated.

Damn who does she think she is, Taylor Swift?

 

[Misty Avich]

I prefer a woman with no makeup.

I can relate to the thing about being known as "the retarded kid" (even though it's taboo to use the word "retarded," that's seriously how the outside world views those of us with ASD). While none of my classmates knew I had ASD, I had a boss at a past job who basically forced me to either tell him exactly what's "wrong" with me or get fired. So I had no choice but to come clean regarding my ASD. From that point on, he treated me like a retarded child.

Yes, I do hate using that R-word, but it's just what I was kind of viewed as at school, not that anyone said but I still had that impression. I mean having a helper with you in class kind of doesn't help your social points. That's the cons of being diagnosed so damn early in life when you're not even severe.

There's nothing wrong with being retarded (as the retarded have no control over their condition). That being said, the fact ASD is viewed as synonymous with retardation really grinds my gears. We tend to be above average in IQ (which means, ironically, chances are we have a higher IQ than whoever's viewing us as retarded)

Yes, doesn't make sense, does it? But I think with me they got the idea that I was the thickest kid in the class because I had a helper with me. I just wanted to be normal, I really did.

One last interesting thing I'm going to address is your comment about preferring older men. I myself gravitate toward older women. I wonder if folks with ASD are more likely than neurotypicals to prefer older (If so, I have a theory: Social rejection by our peers growing up)

I've always felt that most younger men (probably under 45 or something) prefer women who wear make-up and style their hair. Then as men get older they don't really care whether you wear make-up or not. Also I'm just attracted to features of a lot of older men; grey hair, balding and fat (not saying all older men are fat but I still like men with a belly who are also grey and balding. My husband is that exact image. I do actually find grey hair attractive).

When I was 20 I went out with a guy who looked anorexic. He was in his 40s but I just didn't really fancy him. He was too skinny, skinnier than me and I was skinny. He was also short for a man (not a dwarf or anything, but small-featured). It just didn't turn me on. But I couldn't tell him that, so I just used his age as a reason to not date any more, which he accepted. But when I met my husband and put pictures on Facebook of us together, the thin guy blocked me, and I understand why; because he probably thought "how come she doesn't want an older man yet HE looks even older than me?" I felt very bad for him, so he had a good reason to block me (but I didn't post the pictures to make him jealous or anything, as I'm not like that). He probably thinks I'm wicked or something, but it's not like that. I just couldn't think of a reason to not date him other than "you're too skinny, put on some weight!", which I knew might be insulting to him. I think a girl could take that as a compliment but not sure if a man could. Also he didn't drive or have a job, though he had his own apartment. He was great to chat to though, as a friend. I used to go round to his apartment sometimes just for coffee and a chat as friends.

 

[FeatherBird]

Damn who does she think she is, Taylor Swift?

She was a slightly chubby pothead. In retrospect, it's absurd she was on such a high horse.