I attended a speed dating event today

[Misty Avich]

I'm the sort of person who can't make connections when forced. I can only do it naturally. So speed dating wouldn't work for me. For me friendships and dates come when I least expect it. So much easier that way.

 

[FeatherBird]

When I was diagnosed everyone was told against my wishes. My whole class was told. Everybody. I don't know why they didn't just broadcast it on the global news. I wasn't happy with everyone knowing about it, I felt so embarrassed. It's not nice really for a kid to have a label that their classmates are told about. My friend has a (NT) daughter with type 1 diabetes, and everyone in her class knows about it and she often gets ostracized and even bullied for it, even though she's NT. But just having a label of something that the other kids don't have is enough to make you "different". I didn't like being "different". My social life was okay at school before I got the stupid diagnosis.
Like I always say, kids and diagnoses don't mix. It just singles you out and I'm traumatized by it all now as an adult. It's why I'm so resentful of getting a diagnosis early on in life, or of having ASD at all, and frustrates me even more when people don't understand or just get offended by it.

There were a few kids (mostly boys) in my class who needed extra help but I don't think they had diagnoses, or if they did I don't think the whole class knew about it.
I was the last girl in my class to learn to read, as I remember being in the slow-readers group when I was 7 and I was the only girl, all the others in the group were boys. So that made me feel less intelligent than the other girls in my class. And, ironically, to me they seemed like the little professors. Some of them were so mature, like knew how to write really neatly and knew hard sums, and we were like 7 and 8. Maybe I just happened to be put in a class with lots of highly intelligent girls. But they were all NTs.

It's sexy to me lol.

I don't mind social awkwardness, but I'm not so keen on the nerdy type. There's a guy at work who reckons he's on the spectrum, but he doesn't seem it. He shows some social awkwardness, and he was 40 before he found a girlfriend (who he's married to now and I think she has learning difficulties of some sort, as I've met her before). But he's so funny and even quite popular and chatty and has a good sense of humour. But I can still see some quirks and he's not nerdy or anything. But I think he's cool, and he's very much liked by everyone. He knows I have ADHD, as I told him. I don't mind telling people about ADHD, as I definitely fit the mold.

However, there's also a guy at work who I don't know very well (he works in a different department) but whenever I briefly see him I can definitely sense he is autistic, but the quiet, nerdy type. Sadly not many people like him or even talk to him, but he seems happier that way. I looked on his Facebook and it says he's single. He's about 36 (judging by his birth date shown). He mutters to himself a lot and very seldom makes eye contact, or if he does he kind of stares with these beedy little eyes that some may find creepy, but he's probably the opposite of creepy inside. I feel a bit sorry for him as others make fun of him and tell me not to get involved with him because he's "weird". Poor guy though. He might sense that people don't like him and might go home and cry some nights because nobody wants him. It does make you feel sad. But nobody really knows him and he does stand out like an oddball compared to everyone else. I'm quite odd and quirky but because I can be loud and humourous and expressive I guess I'm not really "weird" and fit in quite well with my colleagues.

The coworker in the other department sounds a lot like me. Other than a few much older female employees, hardly anyone at work really associates with me.

I've even had coworkers where I could tell they detested me for reasons totally unknown to me.

 

[FeatherBird]

Same.
Reason, individuality, and freedom of thought wasn't respected there.
Groupthink reigned supreme.
You had to follow their narrative entirely to feel safe.



Autistic males, in particular, tend to be clueless in terms of social interactions.
(Lack of inherent ToM).
We often come across as "creepy" and have no idea what we are doing wrong.
With a social system where males are expected to make the first move, we are at a decided disadvantage.



My strength is my mind.
<flex my prefrontal cortex>

As an example of coming across as creepy without realizing I was doing anything wrong (as well as an example of the disadvantage we're at when we're expected to make the first move), here's a story from college.

There was a girl from my major department who also belonged to the same extracurricular club as me. One time at a club meeting, she mentioned having an IUD so she could have unprotected sex without getting pregnant.

Being socially clueless, I thought she was advertising that she was open to casual sex with any male classmates who were present at the meeting.

So a week or so later, I recommended after class that we become casual sex partners.

In retrospect, I see how wrong I was. That's the thing: There are some social norms we eventually learn; it just takes us a lot longer than it takes neurotypicals.

In college, I had the emotional/social age of a 14 year old, yet the sex drive/sexual maturity of a 20 year old. Bad combination. At the time, I had no idea I was doing anything wrong.

The story I just shared probably could have gotten me expelled if the classmate went to the administration (which ties in with a previous post I made where I said it's somewhat common for male students with ASD to get expelled, or nearly expelled, for making a move on a female classmate while unknownly acting "creepy")

Do female ASD patients deal with struggles? Absolutely; in plenty of areas. But the specific area of being viewed as creepy for making a socially awkward/socially clueless move on a romantic interest is pretty much unique to us dudes with ASD.

 

[FeatherBird]

Testified.



Time to move on.
Such is life. <shrug>



Some ppl have argued, on that other website, that the fault is completely with the clueless autistic male.
This, ironically, is coming from a clueless autistic male.



While I have not been in the situation you described, people can become irrational and there is nothing that can be done.
You have to simply accept it and move on.



So often, it is not what is said, but who says it, agreed.

Yeah, I know what you mean when you say some posters on that other website blame the autistic guy for any "creepy" behaviors he unknowingly engages in when pursuing a romantic interest.

I recall one poster in particular on that other website with the attitude "Contact the cops. Have the cops make a judgment call on whether he's an actual threat or merely a socially clueless basket case"

That poster also insisted a lot of autistic guys merely pretend they didn't realize they were doing anything wrong (to try to get out of legal trouble). One thing I learned on that other website: The autistic community is far from united.

 

[FeatherBird]

yeah another double standard example, if a guy, man, gropes a woman in a public place, setting, such as, touches her inappropriately, obviously there will be legal consequences or the guy, man, will get attacked by the womans friends, but if a woman does the same thing to the man, the man is more likely to forgive her, or obviously the law will go easy on her.

Thats not to say i have never done something like that, never, while i have never gotten expelled or threatened to be kicked out from a college or public place, i have unfortuneately been labeled or just thought of as annoying or made women uncomfortable just for approaching them or asking them out, attempting to socialize with them, thought of as weird.

However, guys, men out there, who give dating advice to men, they say that having awkward or bad interactions with women is part of the journey or process of getting better, an example of statements i read from some mens dating coaches:

"It's the
learning process
. EVERY guy goes through that. Every GIRL goes through similar things, where she reacted in some awkward way to a guy, shooed away a guy she regrets shooing away and now assumes probably hates her, etc., etc.The way you deal with it is by continuing to improve socially, so you can be SMOOTH instead of awkward. This is what everyone does, men and women alike. It is part of the GROWING UP
PROCESS"
.

"you gotta break some eggs to make an omellete. im sure i creeped out tons of girls over the years".

There are 2 different types of scenarios.

For example, a lot of 15 year old neurotypical males aren't smooth yet. They can (and often do) learn smoothness with age/practice.

Then there are dudes with ASD. We'll never be smooth. In fact, acting confident/alpha only makes us (men with ASD) come across as even more dangerous.

 

[FeatherBird]

Probably because they were irritating black and white thinkers who kept thinking that you're talking about all men or all women and so always have to respond to your posts as "some autistic men are in relationships! Autistic women can struggle too!" They can't get it into their heads that you're not talking about ALL men or ALL women.

Yeah.

Plus, on that other website, complaints about the unique struggles men with ASD face were often rebutted (by female posters) with "Even if we have an easier time getting dates/sex then men with ASD do, a lot of it is meaningless sex with no commitment, or dates that the guy only goes on in the hopes of getting sex"

In which case, my rebuttal is "At least you're able to get something. A lot of men with ASD are unable to get anything"

 

[Misty Avich]

Yeah.

Plus, on that other website, complaints about the unique struggles men with ASD face were often rebutted (by female posters) with "Even if we have an easier time getting dates/sex then men with ASD do, a lot of it is meaningless sex with no commitment, or dates that the guy only goes on in the hopes of getting sex"

In which case, my rebuttal is "At least you're able to get something. A lot of men with ASD are unable to get anything"

I agree.

 

[FeatherBird]

"Some have argued that the fault is with the autistic male."
(0%/100% words removed deliberately - they obscure the point)

The mating game is "biological programming" modified by cultural influences.
Amusingly, the best parallels with the human biological programming for pair-bonding are found in birds, because of the extended period of helplessness.

Currently, whether we like it or not, the "cultural overlay" is hurting a solid majority of the participants, but asymmetrically - different kinds of harm for M and for F. Naturally, mass denial of these things is also a modern cultural norm, but the facts are in - denial is a choice.

People who fall outside the norms for this process have every right to wish that wasn't the case, and they have no moral obligation to change.

But the process is absolutely merciless. People who don't get with the program, one way or another (**), won't win any prizes.

(**)
Status, resources, looks, social skills, etc can get around the constraints of course.
Unsurprisingly, they are exactly the things that are universally recommended to people who want to influence their chances of "success" in the mating game.

(NB: One interesting solution to the complete mess that is modern "dating" is for one "side" to stay out of the game altogether. So success isn't easy to define, and for some versions of it, there's no point to mating-centric self-improvement.)

As for the idea of one side staying out entirely, that reminds me of a strategy I've proposed before:

If all available straight men unanimously stopped making moves on women, we'd notice a drastic difference within a year. Once single straight women realized they'd never get a date or sex again unless the woman started making the first move, the woman would start making the first move.

 

[FeatherBird]

I never heard of speed dating before. I don't think I would have liked it. It reminds me of blind dates which I disliked most of all due to the uncertainty, instant pressure and very public failure when it doesn't go well. And it sounds like stringing a bunch of blind dates together at one time. I would guess only certain personalities or types would like that sort of environment.

It has its drawbacks.

One plus (for men with ASD), however, is that we at least (theoretically) have a chance to get our foot in the door with a woman who otherwise wouldn't give us the time of day.

 

[FeatherBird]

I'm the sort of person who can't make connections when forced. I can only do it naturally. So speed dating wouldn't work for me. For me friendships and dates come when I least expect it. So much easier that way.

I got my last 2 dates (if we exclude the speed dating event) when least expecting it.

That being said, I've only been on 2 dates (excluding the speed dating event) in the past 9 years. Goes to show how dismal my odds are when I allow nature to take its course. That's why I threw caution to the wind and did the speed dating event.

 

[FeatherBird]

I agree.

I just remembered another rebuttal that sometimes came up (on that other website) when we'd discuss the unique struggles men with ASD face:

"A woman is far more likely than a man to get raped or murdered on a first date."

^ Which is totally true (and totally a concern). But that's a separate discussion. It still doesn't change the fact a man with ASD has a much harder time securing the initial date in the first place.

 

[Misty Avich]

I just remembered another rebuttal that sometimes came up (on that other website) when we'd discuss the unique struggles men with ASD face:

"A woman is far more likely than a man to get raped or murdered on a first date."

Even that they'd deny, saying that both men and women are equally likely to get raped by each other and that you just hear about women raping or men being raped less because it "isn't in the news enough". I hate that argument.

^ Which is totally true (and totally a concern). But that's a separate discussion. It still doesn't change the fact a man with ASD has a much harder time securing the initial date in the first place.

Yes, it is a separate discussion.
Also they gang up on women who have never been raped like it's our fault. Pardon me for to have never been raped or groomed. Lol

 

[Jonn]

Being socially clueless, I thought she was advertising that she was open to casual sex with any male classmates who were present at the meeting.

So a week or so later, I recommended after class that we become casual sex partners.

In hindsight, it would have been better to ask her to clarify what she meant.
I.E.: Do you believe in casual sex?

In retrospect, I see how wrong I was. That's the thing: There are some social norms we eventually learn; it just takes us a lot longer than it takes neurotypicals.

The problem seems to be that we don't have *inherent* ToM (Theory of Mind), but we can develop what I call "Intellectual Bridges" to cope with this deficit.

It is much more cognitively intensive and is a lot slower, which makes real-time social interactions difficult.
That is why I think a forum context suits ppl on the spectrum better.
It gives as as much time as we need to consider our responses.

 

[Magna]

Then there are dudes with ASD. We'll never be smooth. In fact, acting confident/alpha only makes us (men with ASD) come across as even more dangerous.

You can use not being "smooth" to your advantage. I'm not a woman, but if I was, would I rather have a guy come up to me and use some tired, worn out and predictable pick up line or ask me a completely random but interesting philosophical question? The latter. Every time, the latter.

That kind of approach (ie being my "quirky" self) worked well for me as a young man. Plus, asking thought provoking and quirky questions as conversation starters was mutually beneficial since it weeded out young women that were not intellectually compatible to me and therefore not of interest to me. I'm incapable of being romantically attracted to a woman that I'm not both physically AND intellectually attracted to. I have to have both.

 

[Misty Avich]

I like a forum layout because on Facebook or other social media platforms, even emails, it seems messy and often comments get missed. Here all I've got to do is scroll up and down the page and I get to view all replies without having to keep clicking on "see more responses" every time there's a reply.

 

[Jonn]

"Some have argued that the fault is with the autistic male."
(0%/100% words removed deliberately - they obscure the point)

The mating game is "biological programming" modified by cultural influences.
Amusingly, the best parallels with the human biological programming for pair-bonding are found in birds, because of the extended period of helplessness.

Currently, whether we like it or not, the "cultural overlay" is hurting a solid majority of the participants, but asymmetrically - different kinds of harm for M and for F. Naturally, mass denial of these things is also a modern cultural norm, but the facts are in - denial is a choice.

People who fall outside the norms for this process have every right to wish that wasn't the case, and they have no moral obligation to change.

But the process is absolutely merciless. People who don't get with the program, one way or another (**), won't win any prizes.

(**)
Status, resources, looks, social skills, etc can get around the constraints of course.
Unsurprisingly, they are exactly the things that are universally recommended to people who want to influence their chances of "success" in the mating game.

(NB: One interesting solution to the complete mess that is modern "dating" is for one "side" to stay out of the game altogether. So success isn't easy to define, and for some versions of it, there's no point to mating-centric self-improvement.)

Spoiler

Yes, mom.

 

[Jonn]

I never heard of speed dating before. I don't think I would have liked it. It reminds me of blind dates which I disliked most of all due to the uncertainty, instant pressure and very public failure when it doesn't go well. And it sounds like stringing a bunch of blind dates together at one time. I would guess only certain personalities or types would like that sort of environment.

It is not for most people on the spectrum.
I am 100% convinced of that.

 

[Jonn]

The coworker in the other department sounds a lot like me. Other than a few much older female employees, hardly anyone at work really associates with me.

I've even had coworkers where I could tell they detested me for reasons totally unknown to me.

Testify.

 

[Jonn]

In college, I had the emotional/social age of a 14 year old, yet the sex drive/sexual maturity of a 20 year old. Bad combination. At the time, I had no idea I was doing anything wrong.

I reached intellectual adolescence, not at 16, but around 22.
That was so embarrassing.

Spoiler

But I did make up for it by having another adolescent phase about 6 years ago.
Sadly, not joking.

 

[Jonn]

Yeah, I know what you mean when you say some posters on that other website blame the autistic guy for any "creepy" behaviors he unknowingly engages in when pursuing a romantic interest.

One particular guy comes to mind.

I recall one poster in particular on that other website with the attitude "Contact the cops. Have the cops make a judgment call on whether he's an actual threat or merely a socially clueless basket case"

That poster also insisted a lot of autistic guys merely pretend they didn't realize they were doing anything wrong (to try to get out of legal trouble). One thing I learned on that other website: The autistic community is far from united.

You can be hard-pressed to find a sympathetic attitude at times over there.
There is a strong ultra-feminist ideology coming from some ppl who seem to have the backing of the power clique.