If you were honest with yourselves, how many of you hate having this condition?

[Rodafina]

@thejuice

My reason for responding as I did to yours and Misty’s comments is because I think it’s risky to have the message that “therapy is a silly, stupid waste of time” here on the forum for anyone to read.

I think the message about therapy should be: it is one thing to try and it may or may not be something that helps you. There are very many different types of therapy and some may be more helpful than others. But, if you are suffering, never stop trying different things to feel better and change what you can about your life.

Therapy may not help everyone, but I admire people’s courage to at least try something. We are here to help and support each other, and I think generally speaking, suggestions of therapy on the forum come from people who were helped by it and they want the same for people who are not feeling good about themselves and their lives.

I agree that suggesting therapy should never be used as an insult. I have endured this, too, and it is very unpleasant.

Full disclosure: I tried therapy quite a few times in my life. There were less than helpful experiences for sure, and I sometimes told myself “therapy is stupid.” But with the right person at the right time and a great effort, I was able to go from suicidal drug addict to 2 years totally sober and ready to start living again. I did not do that alone. I needed help.

 

[Slyfox]

Ah therapy, the silver bullet for everything apparently. Often snarky. "I suggest you get therapy"

tried therapy. my last therapist spent all my sessions job searching and then said i was waste of his time that could be spent on other people( assume those without gov insurance and pay more)

 

[Roisin]

I would not be here except for self help and therapy, at this point in my life I choose the pain of personal growth.

I feel that discounting therapy based on limited personal experience should be stated as such, accurately.

Perhaps there could be a discussion about self help within a peer group. If a person chooses the forum as their alternative to therapy, they recognise its boundaries, that it is a shared space where their actions have a ripple effect.

 

[thejuice]

@thejuice

My reason for responding as I did to yours and Misty’s comments is because I think it’s risky to have the message that “therapy is a silly, stupid waste of time” here on the forum for anyone to read.

I think the message about therapy should be: it is one thing to try and it may or may not be something that helps you. There are very many different types of therapy and some may be more helpful than others. But, if you are suffering, never stop trying different things to feel better and change what you can about your life.

Therapy may not help everyone, but I admire people’s courage to at least try something. We are here to help and support each other, and I think generally speaking, suggestions of therapy on the forum come from people who were helped by it and they want the same for people who are not feeling good about themselves and their lives.

I agree that suggesting therapy should never be used as an insult. I have endured this, too, and it is very unpleasant.

Full disclosure: I tried therapy quite a few times in my life. There were less than helpful experiences for sure, and I sometimes told myself “therapy is stupid.” But with the right person at the right time and a great effort, I was able to go from suicidal drug addict to 2 years totally sober and ready to start living again. I did not do that alone. I needed help.

It was a tired, impulsive post, sprinkle of bitterness I understand why you're annoyed by it, unfortunately you caught me declaring all therapy useless just before deletion To be clear to anyone: take your doctors advice over my nonsense

 

[Boogs]

dont follow i was born this way. i had no choice.

Hmmm, we are moving more into somewhat philosophical area's?
I'm not being facetious but I know that's how it looks sometimes so don't take this in that way if it seems to be so ...

Do we need to start defining what's actually meant by using specific words?
For example, what are we really talking about when we speak about choice? You say you had no choice from birth but have you really considered what you actually mean by that?

Obviously there are effectively an infinity of choices, basic physics shows this from the subatomic scale of reality we've reached a (hopefully closer to correct) understanding of, to the complexity of structure formed through change of entropy at higher levels of scale all the way up to the cosmic (etc etc) that in it's turn (to use an anthropic view) ultimately gave us the function of a world simulator in our brain with which we can calculate the possible futures we face which in turn allow change to be within our power to have at least a certain degree of conscious control over.

Suppose instead of autism, you suffered from full body paralysis from birth? Then, I would say, you'd have a far better case for saying you do not have any significant choices.

You've got the most powerful and self-programmable computer known, evolved to provide the best prediction engine available that gives you that special facility over and above most if not all other sentient beings. So I don't genuinely believe that you have no choices, but rather more likely to me is you can't think of any choices, whatever the reason, which is very reminiscent to being depressed. You're educated, intelligent, I don't believe you really think there are no choices, may be it's more that you don't see any?

How about another view..., everything is probability. Did you know that heat can flow from a cool object into a hot object? Essentially flowing uphill! Did you know that light can reflect off a normal mirror at pretty much any angle at all? All those things happen in our world; and yet they are all things we know are impossible and cannot help but know so due to how our brains work. Even the intellectual knowledge that reality is nothing like that which we perceive does little to change the deeply established rule sets in our thinking processes. To say you can't change is wrong, if you stop changing it's because you're dead already.

and for those who cant work hard? i cant handle full time work. its too much and casues mental breakdowns.

I think @Rodafina was talking about the hard work it can take to make changes in oneself, not work as in formal employment necessarily.

 

[Boogs]

It was a tired, impulsive post, sprinkle of bitterness I understand why you're annoyed by it, unfortunately you caught me declaring all therapy useless just before deletion To be clear to anyone: take your doctors advice over my nonsense

"My nonsense is better than their nonsense!"
"No it's not! I have much better nonsense than that!"
"Joking of course! Your nonsense is just, well, utter nonsense!"
"I'll have you know my nonse...
...
....aaaaaaaaargh!"

 

[thejuice]

I spout only the finest of nonsense!

 

[thejuice]

Yes @Boogs Rodafina makes a good point, you need to put the work in, a therapist can't do that for you.

 

[Boogs]

Quite!
Also, this touches on one of my favourite topics - categorisation, how prone we are to it (naturally, under the circumstance of having a neural network), and how despite it's power, it can also mislead.

Therapy isn't a thing, like (imho) autism isn't a thing. It's a category of things.
First off there are good therapists and bad ones.
There are many different types of therapy.
There are personal factors between therapist and therapee (???! 'patient' didn't quite sound right).
And sometimes, some people are subconsciously averse to therapy.

aaaaand sooo oon.

So when we talk about therapy, as often as not we've not got quite the same thing in our respective minds?
Probably for most of us we think only of our own experiences of therapy.
After all, the word 'therapy' just means a treatment.

Rodafina makes a good point, you need to put the work in, a therapist can't do that for you.

I always (from my own psychotherapy experiences) felt that the therapists job is to teach me how to read the map of my mind so I can find anywhere I want to go in the future, not give me a list of instructions on how to get from A to B ("take the 1st on the left, then the fourth on the right ...")

 

[Rodafina]

It was a tired, impulsive post, sprinkle of bitterness I understand why you're annoyed by it, unfortunately you caught me declaring all therapy useless just before deletion To be clear to anyone: take your doctors advice over my nonsense

Thank you for listening to my point of view. I appreciate that and appreciate you.

 

[Misty Avich]

I never implied therapy was stupid. I've had therapy before. I'm on the waiting list for therapy again. Very long waiting lists. Also I find therapy sessions to be too short. Fifty minutes is nothing. I need a couple of hours a session. Also it's finding the time to fit around work, and I've been told NHS therapy aren't available at weekends.

And some of my problems aren't what therapy can cure. Yes, it's good for phobias and PTSD, but not for things like fear of becoming homeless or struggling with stress at work or desperately needing a new place to live because of noisy neighbours. Those are more solvable by reassurance and actual support, like financial or whatever.

And lastly, I often hear of therapists bullying their clients. I don't get how that can happen so often.

 

[honeytoast]

I hate that it is so hard for me to relate to many people.

I hate that I get overwhelmed going anywhere public.

I hate that it's damaged some relationships.

I hate that it makes me unable to recognize certain things, leading me to be in dangerous situations and causing harm.

I hate when it makes me feel useless and scared and feeling like I'm not a normal person.

 

[Boogs]

And some of my problems aren't what therapy can cure. Yes, it's good for phobias and PTSD, but not for things like fear of becoming homeless or struggling with stress at work or desperately needing a new place to live because of noisy neighbours. Those are more solvable by reassurance and actual support, like financial or whatever.

And lastly, I often hear of therapists bullying their clients. I don't get how that can happen so often.

Because therapists are people too, with all the failings that people have?
My father was a psychiatrist, and retired at the top of his field in the UK and internationally recognised as an expert in his specialist areas. And yet his family life was a mess. He struggled to relate to his children, and yet was very empathic and would suffer greatly on the rare occasions he'd lose a patient.

But for all his skills and experience, when it came to his own psyche, he had as many problems with relationships, and his own trauma's, and many other mental issues as many of his patients (within the limits of still being very functional and good at his job).
Bearing in mind that people working in healthcare, and mental healthcare most of all, tend to suffer far greater mental health issues even with very high suicide rates as compared to most other professions.
Whether it's the field that attracts people with those sorts of issues, or whether the job brings those issues with it, or both, it's hard to say but the impact on those people can be profound and they may well pay a heavy price for what they do.

I used to find this very hard to rationalise, especially with my own dysfunctional family upbringing, and I once asked my father directly about it (we were never close and this was not an easy thing to approach), and all he could say was that it's different when it comes to the self. At the time I found this very dissatisfying an answer, but nowadays, I think I understand it much better.

That's not to say there are no bad therapists, but as I started with saying, they are imperfect human beings like the rest of us. And sometimes, a therapist has to say things their patient would not enjoy hearing, and in the high emotion of many therapy sessions, it can be very difficult to have an accurate objective judgement on them.
Also there are a great many types of therapist and therapy and to say they only are good for a very limited range of things isn't always accurate.

Maybe you've found no help beyond these specific things, which would be disappointing for you I'd guess, but many others have been helped for a great many terrible conditions. There will never be a magic cure-all treatment in our foreseeable futures unfortunately, and our system is very far from perfect, but a lot of good is done too and it's only fair to praise the successes as much as denigrate it's failings, maybe even more so.

 

[Misty Avich]

@honeytoast Yes, it does seem that some of us don't like being different. I certainly don't. Well, not autistic different anyway.

I know a (NT) girl with type 1 diabetes, and she doesn't like her diabetes at all because it makes her feel different and she doesn't like being different. I totally get that.

 

[Misty Avich]

Because therapists are people too, with all the failings that people have?
My father was a psychiatrist, and retired at the top of his field in the UK and internationally recognised as an expert in his specialist areas. And yet his family life was a mess. He struggled to relate to his children, and yet was very empathic and would suffer greatly on the rare occasions he'd lose a patient.

But for all his skills and experience, when it came to his own psyche, he had as many problems with relationships, and his own trauma's, and many other mental issues as many of his patients (within the limits of still being very functional and good at his job).
Bearing in mind that people working in healthcare, and mental healthcare most of all, tend to suffer far greater mental health issues even with very high suicide rates as compared to most other professions.
Whether it's the field that attracts people with those sorts of issues, or whether the job brings those issues with it, or both, it's hard to say but the impact on those people can be profound and they may well pay a heavy price for what they do.

I used to find this very hard to rationalise, especially with my own dysfunctional family upbringing, and I once asked my father directly about it (we were never close and this was not an easy thing to approach), and all he could say was that it's different when it comes to the self. At the time I found this very dissatisfying an answer, but nowadays, I think I understand it much better.

That's not to say there are no bad therapists, but as I started with saying, they are imperfect human beings like the rest of us. And sometimes, a therapist has to say things their patient would not enjoy hearing, and in the high emotion of many therapy sessions, it can be very difficult to have an accurate objective judgement on them.
Also there are a great many types of therapist and therapy and to say they only are good for a very limited range of things isn't always accurate.

Maybe you've found no help beyond these specific things, which would be disappointing for you I'd guess, but many others have been helped for a great many terrible conditions. There will never be a magic cure-all treatment in our foreseeable futures unfortunately, and our system is very far from perfect, but a lot of good is done too and it's only fair to praise the successes as much as denigrate it's failings, maybe even more so.

I get that therapists can make mistakes but from the horror stories I read on these forums about therapy it sounds like some therapists are out to bully them. That's what I was talking about. A professionally trained therapist shouldn't bully their clients in incompetent ways that can cause the client more distress and not get anywhere with the therapy sessions. Therapists are supposed to be non-judgemental as best they can.

 

[Boogs]

I get that therapists can make mistakes but from the horror stories I read on these forums about therapy it sounds like some therapists are out to bully them. That's what I was talking about. A professionally trained therapist shouldn't bully their clients in incompetent ways that can cause the client more distress and not get anywhere with the therapy sessions. Therapists are supposed to be non-judgemental as best they can.

Oh I don't disagree that there are some bad therapists and similar roles, indeed, some people are simply unsuited for a career in healthcare, and worse in this case - a bad therapist can do much lasting damage too, not just fail to provide help (although that's true in physiological ailments too sometimes).

But I strongly suspect that as with other examples of professional misconduct and/or plain old incompetence, it's the relatively small number of serious failings that get disproportionately greater publicity that the much greater number of good outcomes (good = an improvement where it's possible), giving a false impression that a great many therapists are not doing a good job.
Also in the UK our NHS has been so badly defunded for so long, that most professionals are not getting the support they need, either in their training and education, or in the support they should be able to count on to do their job well. So this must also have a negative impact, even if it's hard to directly measure.

As an illustration of this effect - I lived in Brixton, London back in the late eighties / early to mid nineties, and at that time Brixton had a terrible reputation for violent street crime. Many Londoners would avoid Brixton especially in the evening and night-time due to the perceived risk. It turned out that during this period, over the space of a year, only about six people were responsible for about 90% of violent crime in the area, and most of that was restricted to the most unwholesome parts rife with drug dealing and gang vs. gang violence.

So despite a fearsome reputation in the end the real risks were a great deal less than most realised, and not much different to many other London boroughs. The thing is that with an emotive and personally relevant issue, it can extremely difficult to get an accurate picture of what's really happening. Our own experiences and those we hear of are such a small sample of the whole it can represent it with any certainty.

Just from my own point of view, I think that while malpractice must always be handled appropriately, we should be looking at the people responsible for allowing the health service to be so degraded in all areas: the government and their policies. There will always be a few people who should not be in particular roles, but it's those in charge who are responsible for a system of checks and balances to ensure this is as minimised as can be.

After all, we've even had one of the most senior UK politicians recently imply, that autistic people just need to pull themselves together (can't recall exact words, but close enough for the meaning) and are being given money and resources hand-over-fist when they just need a good talking to! And some people actually vote for this rubbish!

 

[Misty Avich]

Speak of the devil - I have heard back from the Therapy For You service that I applied for back in April. They asked me to confirm that I still need the service - which I DO, for emetophobia. I know therapy will be good for that type of problem.

But I wasn't tarring all therapists with the same brush, I was just getting tired of people on forums keep asking if I'm going to get therapy when that's not always what everyone wants. But I do want therapy for emetophobia because it's so severe that it's affecting my whole life.

Not sure when they're going to give me my first appointment, but I've been on the waiting list for so long that I was beginning to think they had forgotten about me.

One thing about me is I hate feeling anxious or stressed, so I will do anything I can to problem-solve, but some problems require different solutions, and therapy isn't a one size fits all solution for everybody's problems.

Therapy would be better if the sessions were longer, that's all. I need a day of really intense therapy that includes spa treatment with it. But I guess to have that kind of therapy you have to pay, and I wouldn't be able to afford it. So standard NHS therapy it'll have to be.

 

[Boogs]

Speak of the devil - I have heard back from the Therapy For You service that I applied for back in April.

That's great! So pleased you've had something back at last!

But I wasn't tarring all therapists with the same brush, I was just getting tired of people on forums keep asking if I'm going to get therapy when that's not always what everyone wants. But I do want therapy for emetophobia because it's so severe that it's affecting my whole life.

I didn't mean to put you down in any way! I don't communicate well in some ways, and I know I express emotive stuff badly sometimes. I can fully understand how frustrating it can be trying to negotiate those who have no clue, but like to think they do!
Emetophobia sounds rather unpleasant!

but I've been on the waiting list for so long that I was beginning to think they had forgotten about me.

If it's any consolation (which I'm sure it isn't! ) I got a letter from my GP about 6 months back, telling me my autism referral may only take another five years!

One thing about me is I hate feeling anxious or stressed, so I will do anything I can to problem-solve, but some problems require different solutions, and therapy isn't a one size fits all solution for everybody's problems.

I think that's very much hitting the nail on the head! And especially for conditions as personally unique as autism solutions can be very different depending on person and problem.
My only caveat is that there are many very different therapy models, and therapists, plus sometimes combinations of treatments can be much more effective, so I find just saying 'therapy' could be misleading - some therapies may be worse than useless while others very effective.

I think part of the problem is that the person giving the therapy can have a major impact of how well it'll work, and so, for instance, a therapist may be a bad match, while the type of therapy itself may be appropriate. Without that human to human match it's going to be more likely to struggle.

 

[Misty Avich]

That's great! So pleased you've had something back at last!


I didn't mean to put you down in any way! I don't communicate well in some ways, and I know I express emotive stuff badly sometimes. I can fully understand how frustrating it can be trying to negotiate those who have no clue, but like to think they do!
Emetophobia sounds rather unpleasant!

Don't worry - I knew you weren't arguing or anything. You just shared a point that was different to mine. No biggie.
I was more so referring to Rofinida (or however you spell it) as I didn't want other people to think I'm running therapists down.

Emetophobia is worse than autism (for me anyway).

If it's any consolation (which I'm sure it isn't! ) I got a letter from my GP about 6 months back, telling me my autism referral may only take another five years!

Wow, strange because my ADHD assessment only took a few months, and that was during lockdown (I had my assessment via Zoom). Maybe services like that are quicker in Essex?

I think that's very much hitting the nail on the head! And especially for conditions as personally unique as autism solutions can be very different depending on person and problem.
My only caveat is that there are many very different therapy models, and therapists, plus sometimes combinations of treatments can be much more effective, so I find just saying 'therapy' could be misleading - some therapies may be worse than useless while others very effective.

I think part of the problem is that the person giving the therapy can have a major impact of how well it'll work, and so, for instance, a therapist may be a bad match, while the type of therapy itself may be appropriate. Without that human to human match it's going to be more likely to struggle.

Sometimes therapy is the first solution people offer, and while their heart is in the right place it can still feel like a cliche. I mean, many of us may be starting therapy, on a waiting list for therapy, or are at least looking into it, or have even had therapy.

When I last had therapy, I told the people on another forum that I was having therapy, and one or two of them there kept repeatedly asking me to discuss all my flaws (they accused me of having) to my therapist. What I discuss with my therapist is my business unless I choose to share it myself. I don't need to be lectured into what I should and shouldn't discuss in my therapy sessions. Besides, my last therapist told me that they can only discuss one problem per course, and this time it will be for emetophobia, as it needs addressing, pronto.

 

[Boogs]

Wow, strange because my ADHD assessment only took a few months, and that was during lockdown (I had my assessment via Zoom). Maybe services like that are quicker in Essex?

I suspect you're right, as although I think ADHD is a little better recognised in the NHS, both it and autism services seem to vary massively from Trust to Trust across the country. The old post code lottery I think. I'm in Sussex, though I don't we are especially bad compared to the rest, but even so, five year queue (assuming it hasn't grown to six already!) is a little depressing to consider.

Sometimes therapy is the first solution people offer, and while their heart is in the right place it can still feel like a cliche

Agreed that it shouldn't be used like that. It's a valid tool in the right situation, but there's a world of other things worth considering and once you say "therapy" most people seem to go down one track and miss all the other possibilities - which is why I don't like it when the term "therapy" is used by people who often don't actually know what they mean, or even what kind of therapy!

What I discuss with my therapist is my business unless I choose to share it myself.

And there you go! Idiots who have no clue about what they speak of - if they did they'd know that what's shared with a therapist can be the most private things you could think of. It's so inappropriate to ask about that. It's the sort of thing people volunteer if they want, but nothing more, no-one else has a right to even ask directly!

Besides, my last therapist told me that they can only discuss one problem per course, and this time it will be for emetophobia, as it needs addressing, pronto.

That sounds sensible - focus on fixing one thing that's very important. Put all effort into fixing that one thing seems far better than failing to fix five things because you're spread too thin!