NT and Aspie Communication

[icesyckel]

I spoke with my Aspie friend last night - it had been 7 days which probably doesn't seem long to any "guy", but for me if this were to continue he would be only an "acquaintance" to me. The longer I don't talk to someone my "feelings" for them fade. That's not a friendship to me. In a friendship (IMO for women), women need to communicate more in order to feel a "connection".

There are no absolutes here. People define and experience "friendship" in different ways, and I think that is okay. I can only tell you that, for me, friendship (like genuine love) is not a "feeling," and so it doesn't fade away with time or lack of contact. Perhaps that is an aspie perspective, but I prefer it to viewing friendship as a perishable commodity that has a maximum "shelf life" barring regular (sometimes tedious) maintenance.

For me, an "acquaintance" is anyone I have met in person but not just in passing. Introductions were made. I have "made their acquaintance." I don't have "close acquaintances." I have strangers, acquaintances, friends and close friends.

Now, I'll grant that it is difficult (not necessarily impossible) to be a "close friend" or "besties" (to use a more female-friendly term) with someone you only communicate with sporadically. However, I don't believe you are doing yourself any favors by writing people out of the "friend" category simply because they do no communicate with you regularly or observe what you consider to be appropriate social courtesies.

My other point is, if someone thinks you're important enough to them to send you a text in the first place, have the decency to answer them back even if it's to say you don't feel like talking or will talk to them later.
Don't just ignore the text - that's rude (I don't even have to look that one up in my "Rudeness Manual" to confirm that it's rude) and it says to the other person that they just aren't that important to even warrant any amount of your time.

People have differing notions of what is "decent" or "rude." The behavior you describe (pertaining to your friend) does not strike me as inherently rude. However, I do have a sort of mental "rudeness manual" since I have to keep track what is and is not rude to others except in the more obvious cases.

Let me ask you to consider this, however: before mobile phones and texting, we had a different set of rules. When I purchased my first mobile phone, did I really obligate myself into texting with friends on the time frames they consider to be socially appropriate? (I say time frames, plural, because people have subjective rules that when put int print would not likely be consistent.) I remember thinking - it will be nice to have this in case my car breaks down in the middle of nowhere...

I recently had a "friend" from 20 yrs ago who got mad at me for not going out to dinner with her spur-of-the-moment and didn't talk to me again for 3 whole months then texted me to see how I was doing. What?! I never texted her back because of the way she treated me. Friendships are too important to me to be treated like that - I'd probably get better treatment by my neighbor "the Biatch" (long story in another thread about noisy neighbors).

You're probably going to hate me for saying this, but if friendships are really that important to you, then why not fight harder to keep them by forgiving friends who offend you in such ways?

Logically, you'd keep make and keep more friends that way. Every friend I ever had has pissed me off at some point. If I wrote them all off, then I'd be friendless. Now, I get not having "close" or "best" friends of this nature, but it makes more sense that close friends are harder to make and keep - people are more selective. I have very few friends for whom it would be cool if they just came over without calling me first, for example. However, I have lots of friends I would go help them move or ask them to help me move (or help each other in some way) even if we aren't close enough to make unscheduled visits at each other's homes. That benefits me, and it benefits them.

1) "You don't need to explain why you couldn't return a text right away unless you're married to him or in a committed relationship."

I do that with all my friends (including him) and I apologize. I don't expect him to tell me what he was doing, but I would like an answer to my text within a normal amount of time. I also do that with any phone calls I receive.

I am guessing most guys, even NT guys, are bad at this kind of stuff. You don't have to befriend guys, but if you choose to do so, then just understand that we don't all necessarily share your perspective on these rules. I refuse to agree that in buying a mobile phone I became obligated to respond to texts. I get hundreds of texts every week. I'd go insane.

Also, I hope this is just me being an aspie so that you won't run into it more, but if a girl did this withe me (apologized every time she didn't respond immediately to my text), then I would perceive that as being insecure or clingly. I am not saying you are insecure or clingy - only that this is how I would interpret that having read such a text without more context such as the discussion we are having now. Again, not saying this to offend you - just don't want you to inadvertently send the wrong message (which happens to me all the time and sucks, which is another reason I generally hate texts).

2) ..."Remember that this guy's thought processes are different from yours."

I understand what you are saying, however, it's different with NT's and that could be why Aspies may have a problem keeping NT friends.

Sometime people aren't meant to be friends, but you know he's an aspie and presumably knew that from the outset of your friendship. Now, I don't believe AS/ASD excuses genuinely bad behavior/rudeness in adults, but it does often explain it. If you intend to continue being his friend, then you're probably going to have to be understanding and forgiving of behavior that you would not accept/forgive in an NT guy. You can expect him to make efforts, but you cannot expect him to act, think, or behave as an NT person would - that's not who he is.

We think differently. I will tell you what separates friends from close friends for me more than anything: I can't be close friends with someone I constantly have to maintain my vigil of normalcy around. I've told you before, I believe, that I have to engage in various coping mechanisms at work and in social settings. I cannot stay close friends with someone who expects me to continue flexing that social muscle. To be my close friend, you have to accept the person I am when the curtain drops, the mask is off, and I am the person who I was born to be - not the person society expects me to be. This means liking me as I am without the coping mechanisms. Let me not answer every text. Let me be entirely alone without any communication for days at a time without taking it personally. Accept that it's not about you. And be okay that, when I don't agree with everything you say, I am not being argumentative but just look at almost EVERYTHING differently.

If a person can't do the above, then I understand completely. We don't have to be "close friends." But can't we still be friends at some level? I wonder if maybe you really don't like this guy as he really is, and that's okay. Maybe you can only stand to get so close. That's okay too.

I know he needs his time alone and that doesn't bother me, what does bother me is not answering my texts...

I suspect you are an amazing friend to have in real life and are a pleasure to communicate with online, so again it is not my intent to criticize.

However, you surely see that you can't both leave someone alone and expect them to respond to texts? Clearly it bothers you when he doesn't want to communicate, and that may mean he's not the best friend for you, subjectively. He might be ideal for someone else, but you need someone who follows this protocol of responding to every text if only to say: "I'm not in the mood to text." I'm guessing there are plenty of people who'd be fine with that.

I have changed the way that I talk with him because I know he isn't used to talking as much as I am, but he should also try to accommodate what makes me comfortable in a friendship and that is staying in contact a little more often even if it's just to say a few words - I don't even expect a conversation.

I do agree that friends should try to accommodate their friends. However, we're back to "staying in contact more often" and expecting behavior that is apparently not in this particular guy's nature, whether because of his ASD or something else. You aren't asking him to make a one-time exception or to on an isolated basis respond to your texts - you want him to be the sort of person who reliably responds to texts. He isn't. That's not an accommodation. That's a change.

 

[icesyckel]

3) "for the same reasons, you shouldn't make assumptions about how seriously he takes your friendship just because he doesn't take certain actions or observe certain social protocols that you would observe in his place. I mean, that is like understanding the spectrum 101: don't expect us to think or socialize the same way you do. He might be incredibly fond of you and not text you for a month."

And what I say to that is that kind of contact is not enough to sustain a friendship (for me).... A long distance friendship is different and needs more communication to make up for lack of personal contact (for me).

I think we have come to the same conclusion: this guy is not an ideal friend for you, especially from a long distance perspective, since you perceive long lapses in communication as antagonistic to friendship.

I just don't see the need to write people off entirely as friends just because their friendship is less than ideal. Why not have just have a distant friendship? Or are we just differing on semantics? I sometimes can't tell.

He's a guy - that's why. And is that really a "real" friendship? (I really think guys are different when it comes to friendships.)

It's real friendship for me. As I said, I have a buddy I had not seen in 5+ years and had barely spoken with in that time, yet I stood at his wedding. If he was in trouble, I'd help him if I could and vice versa. I just don't see the relevance of the passage of time in the same way you do. Maybe it's cuz I am guy. Maybe it's cuz I'm not NT. I dunno.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

There are no absolutes here. People define and experience "friendship" in different ways, and I think that is okay. I can only tell you that, for me, friendship (like genuine love) is not a "feeling," and so it doesn't fade away with time or lack of contact. Perhaps that is an aspie perspective, but I prefer it to viewing friendship as a perishable commodity that has a maximum "shelf life" barring regular (sometimes tedious) maintenance.

For me, an "acquaintance" is anyone I have met in person but not just in passing. Introductions were made. I have "made their acquaintance." I don't have "close acquaintances." I have strangers, acquaintances, friends and close friends.

Now, I'll grant that it is difficult (not necessarily impossible) to be a "close friend" or "besties" (to use a more female-friendly term) with someone you only communicate with sporadically. However, I don't believe you are doing yourself any favors by writing people out of the "friend" category simply because they do no communicate with you regularly or observe what you consider to be appropriate social courtesies.



People have differing notions of what is "decent" or "rude." The behavior you describe (pertaining to your friend) does not strike me as inherently rude. However, I do have a sort of mental "rudeness manual" since I have to keep track what is and is not rude to others except in the more obvious cases.

Let me ask you to consider this, however: before mobile phones and texting, we had a different set of rules. When I purchased my first mobile phone, did I really obligate myself into texting with friends on the time frames they consider to be socially appropriate? (I say time frames, plural, because people have subjective rules that when put int print would not likely be consistent.) I remember thinking - it will be nice to have this in case my car breaks down in the middle of nowhere...



You're probably going to hate me for saying this, but if friendships are really that important to you, then why not fight harder to keep them by forgiving friends who offend you in such ways?

Logically, you'd keep make and keep more friends that way. Every friend I ever had has pissed me off at some point. If I wrote them all off, then I'd be friendless. Now, I get not having "close" or "best" friends of this nature, but it makes more sense that close friends are harder to make and keep - people are more selective. I have very few friends for whom it would be cool if they just came over without calling me first, for example. However, I have lots of friends I would go help them move or ask them to help me move (or help each other in some way) even if we aren't close enough to make unscheduled visits at each other's homes. That benefits me, and it benefits them.



I am guessing most guys, even NT guys, are bad at this kind of stuff. You don't have to befriend guys, but if you choose to do so, then just understand that we don't all necessarily share your perspective on these rules. I refuse to agree that in buying a mobile phone I became obligated to respond to texts. I get hundreds of texts every week. I'd go insane.

Also, I hope this is just me being an aspie so that you won't run into it more, but if a girl did this withe me (apologized every time she didn't respond immediately to my text), then I would perceive that as being insecure or clingly. I am not saying you are insecure or clingy - only that this is how I would interpret that having read such a text without more context such as the discussion we are having now. Again, not saying this to offend you - just don't want you to inadvertently send the wrong message (which happens to me all the time and sucks, which is another reason I generally hate texts).



Sometime people aren't meant to be friends, but you know he's an aspie and presumably knew that from the outset of your friendship. Now, I don't believe AS/ASD excuses genuinely bad behavior/rudeness in adults, but it does often explain it. If you intend to continue being his friend, then you're probably going to have to be understanding and forgiving of behavior that you would not accept/forgive in an NT guy. You can expect him to make efforts, but you cannot expect him to act, think, or behave as an NT person would - that's not who he is.

We think differently. I will tell you what separates friends from close friends for me more than anything: I can't be close friends with someone I constantly have to maintain my vigil of normalcy around. I've told you before, I believe, that I have to engage in various coping mechanisms at work and in social settings. I cannot stay close friends with someone who expects me to continue flexing that social muscle. To be my close friend, you have to accept the person I am when the curtain drops, the mask is off, and I am the person who I was born to be - not the person society expects me to be. This means liking me as I am without the coping mechanisms. Let me not answer every text. Let me be entirely alone without any communication for days at a time without taking it personally. Accept that it's not about you. And be okay that, when I don't agree with everything you say, I am not being argumentative but just look at almost EVERYTHING differently.

If a person can't do the above, then I understand completely. We don't have to be "close friends." But can't we still be friends at some level? I wonder if maybe you really don't like this guy as he really is, and that's okay. Maybe you can only stand to get so close. That's okay too.



I suspect you are an amazing friend to have in real life and are a pleasure to communicate with online, so again it is not my intent to criticize.

However, you surely see that you can't both leave someone alone and expect them to respond to texts? Clearly it bothers you when he doesn't want to communicate, and that may mean he's not the best friend for you, subjectively. He might be ideal for someone else, but you need someone who follows this protocol of responding to every text if only to say: "I'm not in the mood to text." I'm guessing there are plenty of people who'd be fine with that.



I do agree that friends should try to accommodate their friends. However, we're back to "staying in contact more often" and expecting behavior that is apparently not in this particular guy's nature, whether because of his ASD or something else. You aren't asking him to make a one-time exception or to on an isolated basis respond to your texts - you want him to be the sort of person who reliably responds to texts. He isn't. That's not an accommodation. That's a change.

1) "I do agree that friends should try to accommodate their friends. However, we're back to "staying in contact more often" and expecting behavior that is apparently not in this particular guy's nature, whether because of his ASD or something else. You aren't asking him to make a one-time exception or to on an isolated basis respond to your texts - you want him to be the sort of person who reliably responds to texts. He isn't. That's not an accommodation. That's a change."

Yes, that is a change. I am also willing to make changes should the other person need those changes in order for a friendship that I really want to keep going. If the other person isn't up for making any "changes" as well, then how can that be called a "real" friendship? A friendship isn't just a one way street - both parties have to "give and take" or "compromise". Now I know that Aspies are not able to do certain things (it is just not in their makeup and it is uncontrollable). If this was the reason he was not answering my texts, then I would understand that and it would not be an expectation anymore. In the beginning of our friendship, we were texting everyday and texted for hours so that is why I'm wondering now why my texts can't be answered with just even a short reply. I'm not expecting anything from him that I don't expect from my other friends. I once had a long distance friendship with a guy in Alaska and all we did was text, but we texted several times a week (almost everyday) and for several hours. This guy was an NT. However, I don't think that I'm expecting a lot to have a text answered with just a few words. I normally started texting my Aspie friend every day and he said that was too much so I do respect that and have stopped texting as often. I have to say though, as an NT, friendships are about "feelings" and as the saying goes "out of sight, out of mind" is very true - the less communication I have, the less the feelings and the friendship is put on a lower level. I also think this is more with women than with men. NT men don't want to communicate as much either. So with my Aspie friend, this is a double whammy (he's an Aspie and a guy). I'm trying to do what he wants, but at the same time there are communication needs that I have to have as an NT and a woman that need to be understood, as well, or the friendship may continue, but it won't be the same. That's probably why marriages end in divorce too, because there isn't enough communication.

 

[Judge]

Have to agree. That time has little relevance in terms of friendship. It's the thought that counts..not the hours, days and months that tick by in between.

Equally I can accept just how foreign this is for NTs to digest.

 

[icesyckel]

1)
Yes, that is a change. I am also willing to make changes should the other person need those changes in order for a friendship that I really want to keep going. If the other person isn't up for making any "changes" as well, then how can that be called a "real" friendship? A friendship isn't just a one way street - both parties have to "give and take" or "compromise".

Again, you and I have very different definitions/ideas about friendship (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

To me, "real friends" don't try to change each other. Accommodating or "compromise" is you want to go for pizza, and I want to go for steak, but we go get pizza. Maybe next time we go get steak. Give and take.

Trying to persuade this guy that he should communicate with you in a certain way or on a certain schedule that fits with your idea of social etiquette (without regard to his own) is not a compromise or "give and take." It is asking him to change himself and how he communicates for you. By my perspective, you aren't trying to be his friend but rather trying to morph him into the friend you want him to be. People make this mistake in relationships all the time.

My wife does things that irritate the snot out of me, but if she changes them for me, then that's not good. She'd no longer be her. And that would suck. You take the good and the bad. Now, if she curbs those behaviors on some occasions or in some situations (like out together in public), then that is an accommodation or compromise. That is fine. Asking her to change is not.

That said, you aren't married to this guy. If you don't like him, then you don't have to be his friend, but it's not fair to him to act like that it is his fault you don't like him, as he is (not as you would have him be).

Now I know that Aspies are not able to do certain things (it is just not in their makeup and it is uncontrollable). If this was the reason he was not answering my texts, then I would understand that and it would not be an expectation anymore.

It is a spectrum. Some can't control things at all, and others are able to control it some, but I know of known who enjoy constantly/continually conforming their behaviors to NT expectations.

To be my close friend (i.e., someone I exchange texts with willingly), you have to be someone with whom I can "drop the act." I don't want to have to constantly conform or check myself around close friends. Others can't do it at all, even if they wanted to. For me, I can do this, but you have no idea how exhausting it is, and if you did, then you'd understand why I cannot be close friends with someone with whom I can never be truly relaxed. Knowing that my every text or lack of text will be the metric by which my friendship is judged, I could never be relaxed with that.

In the beginning of our friendship, we were texting everyday and texted for hours so that is why I'm wondering now why my texts can't be answered with just even a short reply.

Can't speak for him, but, I go through periods/phases when I just NEED to be totally alone and out of communication. I don't know if that is the case for your friend. I answer one text, then I feel like I have to answer the others. Do I answer yours but not my mom's (for example)? Sometimes the world just has to leave me be for a while, or I swear I feel like my head will explode.

I'm not expecting anything from him that I don't expect from my other friends.

That sounds fair, but he isn't like your other friends, and you know that. You can't use the same measuring stick you would for them. I know it's hard.

Just figure - I spend every day trying to get along with NT expectations. To be my friend, you have to be one of the ones who DOESN'T expect NT behavior from me or measure me with the NT measuring stick. I can't speak for everyone on the spectrum, but I am guessing this applies for many if not most of us.

I once had a long distance friendship with a guy in Alaska and all we did was text, but we texted several times a week (almost everyday) and for several hours. This guy was an NT.

He almost had to be, lol. Even most NT guys who I know couldn't keep up with that level/pace.

However, I don't think that I'm expecting a lot to have a text answered with just a few words.

I can't say for certain not knowing him, but I am trying to help you relate to him by explaining that you may be asking for more of him than you realize. It's not your fault if you don't "get it," since you think differently from him. The question is, can you accept that this is potentially a much bigger deal for him than it would be for you in his place?

I normally started texting my Aspie friend every day and he said that was too much so I do respect that and have stopped texting as often.

If he said something, then I am guessing it got to be too much long before he said something. Those of us who have and keep NT friends usually work hard at it - much harder than our NT friends realize. Part of his "give and take" might be that he was exhausted long before he shared with you that it was "too much" for fear of losing you as a friend.

I have to say though, as an NT, friendships are about "feelings"...

Are you sure that is right? I hope my NT friends aren't just my friends when the feeling strikes them. I hope my friendships are more durable than someone's emotional state or mood; otherwise, what's the point? Granted, that I can go 6 years without speaking and still be friends with someone might be on the extreme, but it's got to last longer than a feeling is capable of lasting.

...and as the saying goes "out of sight, out of mind" is very true - the less communication I have, the less the feelings and the friendship is put on a lower level.

Forgive me for saying, but this seems a bit vacuous or possibly needy. I thought "absence makes the heart grow fonder?" I know this is platonic and all, but I'm wondering if it is truly NT to perceive communication and friendship as having a relationship akin to wood and fire? I've never heard that from any of my NT friends, but granted I know there are things that go without saying for them that I sometimes miss.

I also think this is more with women than with men. NT men don't want to communicate as much either. So with my Aspie friend, this is a double whammy (he's an Aspie and a guy).

Sounds reasonable to me.

I'm trying to do what he wants, but at the same time there are communication needs that I have to have as an NT and a woman that need to be understood, as well, or the friendship may continue, but it won't be the same. That's probably why marriages end in divorce too, because there isn't enough communication.

Communication is critical in any relationship, platonic or otherwise, but I would like to emphasize that I think it is the quality, not the quantity, of the communication that is vital. You can talk all day and dance around a point and get nowhere. Conversely, I've settled cases in 5 minutes when people were willing to be reasonable and fair.

I sometimes talk my wife to death, and I sometimes piss her off by being too quiet. In both situations the problem is the same: whatever it was she wanted out of the conversation, I didn't get to it regardless of the word count.

I should say that you speak of "needs" concerning this friend in a way that makes me think he is maybe more than a friend? I'm slow sometimes, but I am starting to feel like maybe there is something else at play here? Like, maybe we're using a thousand words to discuss something you haven't set plainly on the table yet? I could be wrong, but it sure seems like your problems with this friend are more like the problems I face with my wife than with my buddies...

Either way, you seem to have two choices: (1) give him space, accept him as he is, and keep a friend with whom you occasionally enjoy good text chats; or (2) crowd him, lose/write him off as a friend, and have zero good text chats. Expecting him to change, though, and start texting you even to say he doesn't feel like texting? I don't think that will happen no matter how much you may wish it to.

 

[icesyckel]

Have to agree. That time has little relevance in terms of friendship. It's the thought that counts..not the hours, days and months that tick by in between.

Equally I can accept just how foreign this is for NTs to digest.

And Judge sometimes puts me to shame by saying in a couple sentences what takes me paragraphs to get out. Still, there it is.

 

[Judge]

And Judge sometimes puts me to shame by saying in a couple sentences what takes me paragraphs to get out. Still, there it is.

LOL...thanks. But the reality is that NTs have cut me down like a tree at times for being long winded. But I'm working at being more succinct when possible.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Again, you and I have very different definitions/ideas about friendship (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

To me, "real friends" don't try to change each other. Accommodating or "compromise" is you want to go for pizza, and I want to go for steak, but we go get pizza. Maybe next time we go get steak. Give and take.

Trying to persuade this guy that he should communicate with you in a certain way or on a certain schedule that fits with your idea of social etiquette (without regard to his own) is not a compromise or "give and take." It is asking him to change himself and how he communicates for you. By my perspective, you aren't trying to be his friend but rather trying to morph him into the friend you want him to be. People make this mistake in relationships all the time.

My wife does things that irritate the snot out of me, but if she changes them for me, then that's not good. She'd no longer be her. And that would suck. You take the good and the bad. Now, if she curbs those behaviors on some occasions or in some situations (like out together in public), then that is an accommodation or compromise. That is fine. Asking her to change is not.

That said, you aren't married to this guy. If you don't like him, then you don't have to be his friend, but it's not fair to him to act like that it is his fault you don't like him, as he is (not as you would have him be).



It is a spectrum. Some can't control things at all, and others are able to control it some, but I know of known who enjoy constantly/continually conforming their behaviors to NT expectations.

To be my close friend (i.e., someone I exchange texts with willingly), you have to be someone with whom I can "drop the act." I don't want to have to constantly conform or check myself around close friends. Others can't do it at all, even if they wanted to. For me, I can do this, but you have no idea how exhausting it is, and if you did, then you'd understand why I cannot be close friends with someone with whom I can never be truly relaxed. Knowing that my every text or lack of text will be the metric by which my friendship is judged, I could never be relaxed with that.



Can't speak for him, but, I go through periods/phases when I just NEED to be totally alone and out of communication. I don't know if that is the case for your friend. I answer one text, then I feel like I have to answer the others. Do I answer yours but not my mom's (for example)? Sometimes the world just has to leave me be for a while, or I swear I feel like my head will explode.



That sounds fair, but he isn't like your other friends, and you know that. You can't use the same measuring stick you would for them. I know it's hard.

Just figure - I spend every day trying to get along with NT expectations. To be my friend, you have to be one of the ones who DOESN'T expect NT behavior from me or measure me with the NT measuring stick. I can't speak for everyone on the spectrum, but I am guessing this applies for many if not most of us.



He almost had to be, lol. Even most NT guys who I know couldn't keep up with that level/pace.



I can't say for certain not knowing him, but I am trying to help you relate to him by explaining that you may be asking for more of him than you realize. It's not your fault if you don't "get it," since you think differently from him. The question is, can you accept that this is potentially a much bigger deal for him than it would be for you in his place?



If he said something, then I am guessing it got to be too much long before he said something. Those of us who have and keep NT friends usually work hard at it - much harder than our NT friends realize. Part of his "give and take" might be that he was exhausted long before he shared with you that it was "too much" for fear of losing you as a friend.



Are you sure that is right? I hope my NT friends aren't just my friends when the feeling strikes them. I hope my friendships are more durable than someone's emotional state or mood; otherwise, what's the point? Granted, that I can go 6 years without speaking and still be friends with someone might be on the extreme, but it's got to last longer than a feeling is capable of lasting.



Forgive me for saying, but this seems a bit vacuous or possibly needy. I thought "absence makes the heart grow fonder?" I know this is platonic and all, but I'm wondering if it is truly NT to perceive communication and friendship as having a relationship akin to wood and fire? I've never heard that from any of my NT friends, but granted I know there are things that go without saying for them that I sometimes miss.



Sounds reasonable to me.



Communication is critical in any relationship, platonic or otherwise, but I would like to emphasize that I think it is the quality, not the quantity, of the communication that is vital. You can talk all day and dance around a point and get nowhere. Conversely, I've settled cases in 5 minutes when people were willing to be reasonable and fair.

I sometimes talk my wife to death, and I sometimes piss her off by being too quiet. In both situations the problem is the same: whatever it was she wanted out of the conversation, I didn't get to it regardless of the word count.

I should say that you speak of "needs" concerning this friend in a way that makes me think he is maybe more than a friend? I'm slow sometimes, but I am starting to feel like maybe there is something else at play here? Like, maybe we're using a thousand words to discuss something you haven't set plainly on the table yet? I could be wrong, but it sure seems like your problems with this friend are more like the problems I face with my wife than with my buddies...

Either way, you seem to have two choices: (1) give him space, accept him as he is, and keep a friend with whom you occasionally enjoy good text chats; or (2) crowd him, lose/write him off as a friend, and have zero good text chats. Expecting him to change, though, and start texting you even to say he doesn't feel like texting? I don't think that will happen no matter how much you may wish it to.

You're right about a lot of that. Maybe I just want the friendship to be like it was in the beginning and it's gotten to a "comfortable" place for him and he doesn't feel the need to have to communicate the same with me.

Question. If your wife said to you "Honey, I'm feeling like we're not spending enough time together and I'd really wish we could talk more. Can we set a few more times a week just for the two of us?" What would you say?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Have to agree. That time has little relevance in terms of friendship. It's the thought that counts..not the hours, days and months that tick by in between.

Equally I can accept just how foreign this is for NTs to digest.

I agree that it's the "thought that counts". So if I send a text and it goes unanswered for days am I being thought of?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I also see marriages and friendships as intertwined. A good marriage is a friendship - hopefully best friends. So a really good friendship should be treated the same way - with respect and trying to make sure the other is happy and content. If one person feels like they have to make a "change" that they aren't willing to make, then the other has to decide if they can live with that or leave. A marriage and friendship are full of "compromises" - which I believe in. It's only called a "change" if one party doesn't agree to it, but still carries it out.

 

[Judge]

I agree that it's the "thought that counts". So if I send a text and it goes unanswered for days am I being thought of?

Does a thought of one hinge exclusively on a response, or just a thought alone?

If by chance an Aspie is going through a "period of solitude" don't expect it to have precise time limits. They may have cut themselves off from the world...and eventually will come up for air. But on their terms.

 

[icesyckel]

You're right about a lot of that. Maybe I just want the friendship to be like it was in the beginning and it's gotten to a "comfortable" place for him and he doesn't feel the need to have to communicate the same with me.

Question. If your wife said to you "Honey, I'm feeling like we're not spending enough time together and I'd really wish we could talk more. Can we set a few more times a week just for the two of us?" What would you say?

My wife has said something very close to that to me.

1st, remember that I may be higher functioning than your friend, and so my response might not be a fair method of measuring his.

However, my response to such questions/concerns from my wife is to plan a quiet dinner together so we can talk about it over food. This is strategic: chewing my food gives me a socially acceptable reason to delay answering and think before I choose my words without it seeming as if I am ignoring her. Also, it decreases the chances either of us will give in to the urge to scream. Lastly, sitting opposite her makes it easier for me to remember to force eye contact, which I loathe.

However, ultimately my answer is always that I can schedule more time for us to be together some weeks but not others. I cannot promise my wife that I will always, in perpetuity, spend more time with her without having a meltdown. In fact, overdoing it one week may mean not being able to talk to her for a long time as I "recover." Explaining this to her is as difficult as explaining it to you. It isn't something she has experienced. I may as well try to explain to my deaf cat that her shrill screams set off my auditory sensitivities and makes me want to kill her violently.

Instead, I go some place I can be alone until the world settles down. She followed me once when I was walking away to catch my breath, and I destroyed our coffee pot as a result. I'd never hurt my wife, but I have murdered some inanimate objects during a meltdown. I'm not proud of it, as I value reason over passion, but it happens. This is why you musn't push your friend. Good coffee pots aren't cheap.

But, you are right, there are things I do to try and accommodate her - dinner, even a sweet text message. I don't make promises I can't keep, though, such as a regular/ongoing frequency for spending time alone together. Instead, I try to think of what I can do, promise, fulfill.

Your friend may not be capable of doing the same. Remember, my need to be alone, potentially like your friend's, is all about being overstimulated or anxious, and it's rarely one specific person. It is all people, and needing to be alone. He may not be avoiding you so much as he is avoiding people.

I agree that it's the "thought that counts". So if I send a text and it goes unanswered for days am I being thought of?

Ahhhhh - I see what you did there

The answer is: possibly. I sometimes don't want to talk to my wife precisely because I am thinking about her and how I want to phrase something or broach something. Other times, I have been wiped out by over-socialization, and am in crash mode. I have called in sick to work before just to spend the day in bed where it is quiet and no people are trying to talk to me. That has nothing to do with my wife or anyone else but me. I still love my friends, family, and wife when I shake out of it.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Does a thought of one hinge exclusively on a response, or just a thought alone?

Without a response, how does one know they're being thought of?

 

[Judge]

Without a response, how does one know they're being thought of?

Dialogue from the film "Contact":

Palmer Joss: [Ellie challenges Palmer to prove the existence of God] Did you love your father?

Ellie Arroway: What?

Palmer Joss: Your dad. Did you love him?

Ellie Arroway: Yes, very much.

Palmer Joss: Prove it.



In other words if one has faith, it doesn't necessarily require a form of validation.

 

[Ereth]

Without a response, how does one know they're being thought of?

One doesn't. Faith in someone else is always a good thing . . . but for me, someone has to earn that faith.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

My wife has said something very close to that to me.

1st, remember that I may be higher functioning than your friend, and so my response might not be a fair method of measuring his.

However, my response to such questions/concerns from my wife is to plan a quiet dinner together so we can talk about it over food. This is strategic: chewing my food gives me a socially acceptable reason to delay answering and think before I choose my words without it seeming as if I am ignoring her. Also, it decreases the chances either of us will give in to the urge to scream. Lastly, sitting opposite her makes it easier for me to remember to force eye contact, which I loathe.

However, ultimately my answer is always that I can schedule more time for us to be together some weeks but not others. I cannot promise my wife that I will always, in perpetuity, spend more time with her without having a meltdown. In fact, overdoing it one week may mean not being able to talk to her for a long time as I "recover." Explaining this to her is as difficult as explaining it to you. It isn't something she has experienced. I may as well try to explain to my deaf cat that her shrill screams set off my auditory sensitivities and makes me want to kill her violently.

Instead, I go some place I can be alone until the world settles down. She followed me once when I was walking away to catch my breath, and I destroyed our coffee pot as a result. I'd never hurt my wife, but I have murdered some inanimate objects during a meltdown. I'm not proud of it, as I value reason over passion, but it happens. This is why you musn't push your friend. Good coffee pots aren't cheap.

But, you are right, there are things I do to try and accommodate her - dinner, even a sweet text message. I don't make promises I can't keep, though, such as a regular/ongoing frequency for spending time alone together. Instead, I try to think of what I can do, promise, fulfill.

Your friend may not be capable of doing the same. Remember, my need to be alone, potentially like your friend's, is all about being overstimulated or anxious, and it's rarely one specific person. It is all people, and needing to be alone. He may not be avoiding you so much as he is avoiding people.



Ahhhhh - I see what you did there

The answer is: possibly. I sometimes don't want to talk to my wife precisely because I am thinking about her and how I want to phrase something or broach something. Other times, I have been wiped out by over-socialization, and am in crash mode. I have called in sick to work before just to spend the day in bed where it is quiet and no people are trying to talk to me. That has nothing to do with my wife or anyone else but me. I still love my friends, family, and wife when I shake out of it.

1) However, ultimately my answer is always that I can schedule more time for us to be together some weeks but not others. I cannot promise my wife that I will always, in perpetuity, spend more time with her without having a meltdown. In fact, overdoing it one week may mean not being able to talk to her for a long time as I "recover." Explaining this to her is as difficult as explaining it to you.

My friend has said the same to me before.
(I must have really wore him out last Thurs cause I didn't hear from him for a week! )
I just can't understand that. Does it feel like jet lag? Or some sickness that I can relate to?

I really don't want to make anything uncomfortable for him. I just miss talking to him.

2) Lastly, sitting opposite her makes it easier for me to remember to force eye contact, which I loathe.

Forgive me for laughing about the eye contact thing. It just seems so unnatural NOT to have eye contact.
He said I'd get a lot less conversation if we were face to face. If we ever meet, he better bring his phone!

Another question: Do all Aspies have a hard time starting conversations? I'm afraid if I wait for him to text me I won't hear from him because he doesn't know what to say to start a conversation. I usually text with a question.

 

[icesyckel]

I also see marriages and friendships as intertwined. A good marriage is a friendship - hopefully best friends. So a really good friendship should be treated the same way - with respect and trying to make sure the other is happy and content. If one person feels like they have to make a "change" that they aren't willing to make, then the other has to decide if they can live with that or leave. A marriage and friendship are full of "compromises" - which I believe in. It's only called a "change" if one party doesn't agree to it, but still carries it out.

All successful marriages do equal good friendships. Not all friendships need be on a par with marriage-level friendship, though. I think you expect more from friends than is typical even for the typical neuro-typical, but I could be wrong. But comparing friendships with someone you communicate primarily via text to marriage is ... a little extreme.

I disagree about compromise being equivalent to change when the change in question is someone's nature, state of being, or personality/how they communicate. That isn't compromise - that is you saying change how you communicate or we're quits as friends. That's an ultimatum, which is the opposite of compromise.

I compromise all the time with my wife. She wants to go out, and I want to stay at home. So we go out Friday night and stay in on Saturday, or we travel one weekend but stay in and rent a movie the next. That is compromise. Now, imagine I told my wife that she has to text me within X number of minutes/hours of me sending a text or we can't be friends/are getting a divorce? That's asking for way more than compromise. Now imagine if she wasn't neurotypical and I made this demand? Is that reasonable?

Does a thought of one hinge exclusively on a response, or just a thought alone?

If by chance an Aspie is going through a "period of solitude" don't expect it to have precise time limits. They may have cut themselves off from the world...and eventually will come up for air. But on their terms.

^True dat.

Without a response, how does one know they're being thought of?

I don't think he meant constant thought. I think Judge meant friendship is more than just the sum or frequency of your text communications.

Also, do you really need to be in someone's thoughts so frequently to experience friendship? This again seems atypical to me, but I'm not really the best judge of typical I admit.

 

[icesyckel]

My friend has said the same to me before.
(I must have really wore him out last Thurs cause I didn't hear from him for a week! )
I just can't understand that. Does it feel like jet lag? Or some sickness that I can relate to?

It's more like, imagine your most stressful day when everything is coming at you all at once like cymbals clanging together as the same time, like the world is filled with loud explosions and all you want to do is crawl in a hole and hide until the explosions stop and you can breathe again. Severe anxiety, maybe depression, and a headache. Sometimes like a migraine.

I really don't want to make anything uncomfortable for him. I just miss talking to him.

And that is both awesome and very sweet of you to say.

Just realize that his needs and yours are very different. He may very well miss you and still need time alone.

Regardless, you clearly have a strong need to connect with your friends socially, possibly from your postings more than anyone I've ever met. First, just recognize that about yourself - there's nothing wrong with it. Second, realize your friend isn't competent to 100% fulfill that need. Rather than de-friending him, though, keep him as a distant friend and let him fulfill that need when he can/is able. Cultivate others whom you can also rely on to "spread it out."

Trust me, for what you've described, you're going to be better off with a wide net of casual friends than one or two really close ones who, if they fall off the grid, may leave you in dire straights. People on the spectrum are going to be particularly difficult to rely on all on their own in this respect.

2) Lastly, sitting opposite her makes it easier for me to remember to force eye contact, which I loathe.

Forgive me for laughing about the eye contact thing. It just seems so unnatural NOT to have eye contact.

You'd never know it to meet me at work or in the world, but every single time I make eye contact with you, it's like flexing a muscle or holding my breath. If you make me keep at it, then you will wear me out. This is why I have few "close" friends. They stress me out more than they relax me. Instead, I have a wide net of distant or casual friends.

He said I'd get a lot less conversation if we were face to face. If we ever meet, he better bring his phone!

Typing on the internet or by chat requires far less effort, and is therefore less exhausting for us. In person is the most difficult. When on the phone, no one can see anyone's face, which strips me of my handicap of not being able to read faces, etc.

Another question: Do all Aspies have a hard time starting conversations? I'm afraid if I wait for him to text me I won't hear from him because he doesn't know what to say to start a conversation. I usually text with a question.

The answer to questions starting "Do all Aspies______" is almost always "no," because AS is on a spectrum of conditions and manifests differently in different people. I know I am relatively new at this Dx, but you'd be shocked how much I can read/research in a short amount of time. (Actually, maybe you wouldn't be shocked if you understood AS and obsessive behavior.)

That said, there are norms among the abnormal, so to speak, averages among the unaverage. I am regarded by my psych as being EXTREMELY high functioning despite having severe issues in some of the areas (ergo, high functioning does not equal "mild" so much as "controlled" in some cases - 30+ years of practice coping...)

Difficulty in social situations is, perhaps, the hallmark "symptom" of Asperger's. So, getting back to your question, not all but most people with AS have difficulty in social situations such as starting a conversation, or at least in starting a conversation that is not entirely one-sided. Even those such as myself who APPEAR to start conversations fairly easily do not necessarily find it easy internally.[/QUOTE]

 

[icesyckel]

Nurse - my wife just called me and asked if she could visit a friend tonight rather than spend time with me. Ironically, as it has been a week since I last saw my wife, I am actually disappointed, but I said yes. I did not express to her that I was disappointed even though we have actually argued and recently that I feel she has spent too much time with her friends and not enough with me. This after she had agreed to stay in with me this weekend after said argument.

I tell you this for two reasons: (1) to show you that people on the spectrum do miss others sometimes even when we don't say it; and (2) how I am compromising with my wife but not changing in the process. I am still disappointed she chose to go see her friend tonight when we've not seen each other in a week, but I know she needs to spend time with her friends whom she also has not seen in 2 weeks. So, I will compromise with her and spend time with her tomorrow.

Her expecting me to agree to this is expecting me to compromise. If she expected me to somehow change my attitude about this and not be disappointed/upset, then that is a change I am incapable of making. If I was okay with this situation, then I wouldn't be me... not at all.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

It's more like, imagine your most stressful day when everything is coming at you all at once like cymbals clanging together as the same time, like the world is filled with loud explosions and all you want to do is crawl in a hole and hide until the explosions stop and you can breathe again. Severe anxiety, maybe depression, and a headache. Sometimes like a migraine.



And that is both awesome and very sweet of you to say.

Just realize that his needs and yours are very different. He may very well miss you and still need time alone.

Regardless, you clearly have a strong need to connect with your friends socially, possibly from your postings more than anyone I've ever met. First, just recognize that about yourself - there's nothing wrong with it. Second, realize your friend isn't competent to 100% fulfill that need. Rather than de-friending him, though, keep him as a distant friend and let him fulfill that need when he can/is able. Cultivate others whom you can also rely on to "spread it out."

Trust me, for what you've described, you're going to be better off with a wide net of casual friends than one or two really close ones who, if they fall off the grid, may leave you in dire straights. People on the spectrum are going to be particularly difficult to rely on all on their own in this respect.



You'd never know it to meet me at work or in the world, but every single time I make eye contact with you, it's like flexing a muscle or holding my breath. If you make me keep at it, then you will wear me out. This is why I have few "close" friends. They stress me out more than they relax me. Instead, I have a wide net of distant or casual friends.



Typing on the internet or by chat requires far less effort, and is therefore less exhausting for us. In person is the most difficult. When on the phone, no one can see anyone's face, which strips me of my handicap of not being able to read faces, etc.



The answer to questions starting "Do all Aspies______" is almost always "no," because AS is on a spectrum of conditions and manifests differently in different people. I know I am relatively new at this Dx, but you'd be shocked how much I can read/research in a short amount of time. (Actually, maybe you wouldn't be shocked if you understood AS and obsessive behavior.)

That said, there are norms among the abnormal, so to speak, averages among the unaverage. I am regarded by my psych as being EXTREMELY high functioning despite having severe issues in some of the areas (ergo, high functioning does not equal "mild" so much as "controlled" in some cases - 30+ years of practice coping...)

Difficulty in social situations is, perhaps, the hallmark "symptom" of Asperger's. So, getting back to your question, not all but most people with AS have difficulty in social situations such as starting a conversation, or at least in starting a conversation that is not entirely one-sided. Even those such as myself who APPEAR to start conversations fairly easily do not necessarily find it easy internally.

[/QUOTE]

1) It's more like, imagine your most stressful day when everything is coming at you all at once like cymbals clanging together as the same time, like the world is filled with loud explosions and all you want to do is crawl in a hole and hide until the explosions stop and you can breathe again. Severe anxiety, maybe depression, and a headache. Sometimes like a migraine.

Those symptoms would probably take me about a day to recover (if I have a migraine). Is it different for an Aspie? And how often does this happen?